New scrumcap claims to reduce impacts by 75%.

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-un...-could-be-vital-in-rugbys-fight-against-conc/

Let me be the first to call bull**** on this.

Helmets are fundamentally ineffective at preventing concussion.

I don't how to properly express my doubts about this.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, I don't buy it either.
If a great big American Football helmet can't stop concussion then that thing isn't going to. I know the impacts are bigger in AF but still...


Sounds like this company has slightly modified a bog standard scrum cap (I saw on Corbs' instagram that it's got like 6 layers of padding instead of one, or something - like that'll make any difference at all) an has given Corbs a load of cash to endorse it and give it credibility. Especially as concussion is (rightly) a hot topic in contact/collision sports these days.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm actually fairly angry about it, TBH... because unless they've invented some sort of miraculous flubber like material, then I feel that they're being intellectually dishonest in the extreme.

And if they have done that, then there are probably far bigger applications for such a technology than sports equipment.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

in the states there is a company that makes head gear for mentally challenged children... they have an item that is available for rugby

i believe that it can help with minor hits or help those that already had one bad concussion get back on the field... but it is not going to help you when you just get smashed out on the pitch

http://www.alimed.com/gamebreaker-scrum-cap-headgear.html

 

[Which Tyler]

Concussion happens when the brain hits the inside of the skull
No amount of padding on the outside of the skull can change that.

Anyone who wants to test it can feel free to wrap the back of a cricket bat with as much padding as they fancy, then hit themselves with the front, and report back on how helpful that padding was.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Concussion happens when the brain hits the inside of the skull
No amount of padding on the outside of the skull can change that.

Anyone who wants to test it can feel free to wrap the back of a cricket bat with as much padding as they fancy, then hit themselves with the front, and report back on how helpful that padding was.

ehhhh, foam absorbs some of the energy which means less energy meets the skull... there is only so much energy generated by an object

 

[ncurd]

Correct me if im wrong but concussion is caused by the brain moving about in the skull after impact.

The only thing I'm aware of that helps with this is a HANS device in F1 which minimises how much the head move around (but ultimately is for whiplash).

So yeah unsure how this can possibly help. Unless it some reduces the movement of the head.

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ehhhh, foam absorbs some of the energy which means less energy meets the skull... there is only so much energy generated by an object

Nope because in this instance that energy still effects the force within the skull none of it is lost as it's a fluid on the inside. All it does is reduce force on the.outside of the skull.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Correct me if im wrong but concussion is caused by the brain moving about in the skull after impact.

The only thing I'm aware of that helps with this is a HANS device in F1 which minimises how much the head move around (but ultimately is for whiplash).

So yeah unsure how this can possibly help. Unless it some reduces the movement of the head.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope because in this instance that energy still effects the force within the skull none of it is lost as it's a fluid on the inside. All it does is reduce force on the.outside of the skull.

but energy is transferred from object -> skull -> brain... if you reduce the energy absorbed by skull you are reducing the amount of energy that the brain receives which causes it to shake around the skull

i'd believe that these effects are minimal

 

[ncurd]

No because in this instance it's Object+skull->brain they are one in the same thing.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

No because in this instance it's Object+skull->brain they are one in the same thing.

oh, like brain and skull are a system?

i know baseball catchers have masks that spread the impact but i guess they spread the impact around the mask

 

[ratsapprentice]

ehhhh, foam absorbs some of the energy which means less energy meets the skull... there is only so much energy generated by an object

It's not about dissipating force that is hitting the head... it's about mitigating the energy of the brain itself inside the skull.
The brain itself is being propelled when you are running - if you are tackled, it's as much your own velocity which imparts an impact on the brain as it is the person who is tackling you.
The energy of two very heavy dudes running and colliding has to go somewhere when a player is tackled - a small piece of fabric/gel can only hold so much energy, and that amount is practically negligible in the context of preventing concussion.

Think about it like this...

You've got a glass bottle of coke.... imagine holding it still in one hand and punching it - not much happens, doesn't really fizz up too much.

Now imagine going to overarm throw the bottle, but instead of releasing it, you just abruptly stop and keep hold of it - the coke flies into the front of the bottle and fizzes up like a *****.

Putting a scrum cap on the coke bottle isn't going to prevent that from happening - and it's exactly the same mechanic for your brain inside your skull.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

It's not about dissipating force that is hitting the head... it's about mitigating the energy of the brain itself inside the skull.
The brain itself is being propelled when you are running - if you are tackled, it's as much your own velocity which imparts an impact on the brain as it is the person who is tackling you.
The energy of two very heavy dudes running and colliding has to go somewhere when a player is tackled - a small piece of fabric/gel can only hold so much energy, and that amount is practically negligible in the context of preventing concussion.

Think about it like this...

You've got a glass bottle of coke.... imagine holding it still and punching it - not much happens, doesn't really fizz up too much.

Now imagine going to overarm throw the bottle, but instead of releasing it, you just abruptly stop and keep hold of it - the coke flies into the front of the bottle and fizzes up like a *****.

Putting a scrum cap on the coke bottle isn't going to prevent that from happening - and it's exactly the same mechanic for your brain inside your skull.

i get what your saying... i understand that the head moving is what causes the concussion

but wouldn't padding prevent the head from moving as much? i'm talking small collisions not major ones

- - - Updated - - -

It's not about dissipating force that is hitting the head... it's about mitigating the energy of the brain itself inside the skull.
The brain itself is being propelled when you are running - if you are tackled, it's as much your own velocity which imparts an impact on the brain as it is the person who is tackling you.
The energy of two very heavy dudes running and colliding has to go somewhere when a player is tackled - a small piece of fabric/gel can only hold so much energy, and that amount is practically negligible in the context of preventing concussion.

Think about it like this...

You've got a glass bottle of coke.... imagine holding it still and punching it - not much happens, doesn't really fizz up too much.

Now imagine going to overarm throw the bottle, but instead of releasing it, you just abruptly stop and keep hold of it - the coke flies into the front of the bottle and fizzes up like a *****.

Putting a scrum cap on the coke bottle isn't going to prevent that from happening - and it's exactly the same mechanic for your brain inside your skull.

i get what your saying... i understand that the head moving is what causes the concussion

but wouldn't padding prevent the head from moving as much? i'm talking small collisions not major ones

 

[ratsapprentice]

i know baseball catchers have masks that spread the impact but i guess they spread the impact around the mask

Yes, there's also nowhere near as much force going through a baseball as there is your body when you/another person are running.

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but wouldn't padding prevent the head from moving as much? i'm talking small collisions not major ones

Not to any significant level.

The only thing it can do is dissipate the force over a larger area so that you don't get cuts and bruises as easily... it doesn't really "absorb" energy, in that sense.

If it did then there would be far wider applications in safety equipment for all sorts of industries - what they need to do in order to make an impact upon concussions is massive.

If they had genuinely made a product that could (significantly) reduce the severity/liklihood of a concussive injury then Boxing, NFL, Racing, Firemen, Construction workers would all be using it... ****, bulletproof vest manufacturers would be paying this company billions if they could do it.
I would be shocked if that happened.

 

[welshglory]

Thing is in American football they've only just started researching making the helmets safer. The ones that the guys use in college and the NFL are what you can buy off a store for cheap.

I think the recent concussion crisis across all contact sports is going to lead to more research and hopefully development. At least something is happebing

 

[BRSTLDRGN]

Picture of prototypes in testing

<img style="user-select: none; cursor: zoom-in;" src="http://www.michiganbubbleballsoccer.com/IMG-1.jpg" width="589" height="331">

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Concussion happens when the brain hits the inside of the skull
No amount of padding on the outside of the skull can change that.

Anyone who wants to test it can feel free to wrap the back of a cricket bat with as much padding as they fancy, then hit themselves with the front, and report back on how helpful that padding was.

You serious? Of course padding can change that.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You serious? Of course padding can change that.

Read it again.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Enlighten me, which part did i miss/misinterpret?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Actually what helmets reduce is the force, not the energy. A large object hitting you slowly will carry a lot of energy but not deliver much force. When it comes to impacts the primary focus is to increase the time of the impact, or the impulse. If you have a collision that takes 0.1 seconds to complete, then increasing that collision time to 0.2 through the use of padding will half the force required to resist the collision. This is the principle of crumple zones in cars, it allows the deceleration to occur over a longer period of time and thus the deceleration is less, therefore less force.

With impacts the rate of acceleration is what matters.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

2 things.

1) Additionally, the area where that acceleration is focused on is quite important! That is why displacement is essential in most protective gear. From helmets to airbags to bullet proof vests.
2) "A large object hitting you slowly will carry a lot of energy but not deliver much force." That is not true.

F=m.a but the times of impact are the same for both parties (for the one hitting and the one being hit). So what matters is the momentum the change in momentum. Two parties so the change of one is (in absolute terms) the equeal to the other

m1 x Δv1 = -m2 x Δv2

m being mass and v being velocity. If m1 is big enough (or m2 small enough, what matters is the differential), even if the v1 is small the impact on 2 can be big.