Paddy Jackson & Stuart Olding Face Rape Charges

[TRF_heineken]

Geez. That's not a pretty picture.

Just out of curiosity, are the media not overall allowed to report on cases currently being heard in court in Ireland? It's pretty standard here in SA, and you all saw the coverage of the Oscar Pistorius trial...

 

[ncurd]

The Ched Evans case was over turned due to the indifferent stories, with some evidence ignored until the retrial. The victims story didn't add up with witnesses statements.

Not entirely true the main reason it was overturned was third party evidence that the woman involved had been involved in consensual sexual encounters in which she displayed behaviour incredibly close to what happened according to the defences account of how things went.

Whether that is right or wrong is matter of debate usually a court of law is not allowed to use this as evidence but an appeal court did think the third parties were telling the truth and a judge agreed the encounters were close enough to wave the usual right for it to not be used.

Doesn't stop Ched being scum though left his fiancée (why she is still with him is madness) to go bang another woman who he barely spoke to.

 

[TommiG88]

Not entirely true the main reason it was overturned was third party evidence that the woman involved had been involved in consensual sexual encounters in which she displayed behaviour incredibly close to what happened according to the defences account of how things went.

Whether that is right or wrong is matter of debate usually a court of law is not allowed to use this as evidence but an appeal court did think the third parties were telling the truth and a judge agreed the encounters were close enough to wave the usual right for it to not be used.

Doesn't stop Ched being scum though left his fiancée (why she is still with him is madness) to go bang another woman who he barely spoke to.

He's definitely scum, don't get me wrong.

But she also said she couldn't remember a thing, but for someone who supposedly got forced into it stopped for pizza on the way to the hotel, and was supposedly enjoying it.

 

[collace]

Another Ulster fan here who doesn't want them back regardless of verdict.

At the end of the day as high profile players they are ambassadors for Ulster Rugby and that should be taken seriously. Even if their version is true it's still seriously sordid stuff and the messages exchanged afterwards are just nasty. Obviously things could be going on behind closed doors with any given player but this stuff is now out in the open and will reflect back on Ulster.

You would imagine there would be clauses in their contract regarding behaviour, bringing the organisation into disrepute etc.

 

[Thingimubob]

He's definitely scum, don't get me wrong.

But she also said she couldn't remember a thing, but for someone who supposedly got forced into it stopped for pizza on the way to the hotel, and was supposedly enjoying it.

True that the Evans case had a lot more stuff going on, but still frustrates me that, as ncurd said, it got used. I just really don't think past encounters should come into play.

Guy is a scumbag though, and I certainly don't want him anywhere near the Welsh squad - much like a lot of Ulster fans not wanting these boys back regardless of the verdict.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

True that the Evans case had a lot more stuff going on, but still frustrates me that, as ncurd said, it got used. I just really don't think past encounters should come into play.

Guy is a scumbag though, and I certainly don't want him anywhere near the Welsh squad - much like a lot of Ulster fans not wanting these boys back regardless of the verdict.

Character evidence is rarely used, passed convictions of the defence can't be brought up until sentencing for example apart from a few exceptions. If the defence make claims against the alleged victim's character they allow the prosecution to question the defence's character. It probably should be looked at however especially in a rape case where past promiscuity will sway a jury and is not evidence to the case the vast majority of times.

 

[big ginger 8]

Geez. That's not a pretty picture.

Just out of curiosity, are the media not overall allowed to report on cases currently being heard in court in Ireland? It's pretty standard here in SA, and you all saw the coverage of the Oscar Pistorius trial...

In Ireland we have the constitutional right to a good name. In certain types of cases such as privacy. Names aren't used in cases of a sexual nature or in family law.

 

[TRF_heineken]

In Ireland we have the constitutional right to a good name. In certain types of cases such as privacy. Names aren't used in cases of a sexual nature or in family law.

I think most constitutions have that. But most of them also have freedom of speech which includes the media.

But the thing is though, that even before the trial, we all knew that these guys were going to be on trial. I mean, the news reports even travelled as far as South Africa.

Those articles also only refer to the accused in name, and not the victim. Which is the same as here in SA (in criminal cases).

 

[big ginger 8]

I think most constitutions have that. But most of them also have freedom of speech which includes the media.

But the thing is though, that even before the trial, we all knew that these guys were going to be on trial. I mean, the news reports even travelled as far as South Africa.

Those articles also only refer to the accused in name, and not the victim. Which is the same as here in SA (in criminal cases).

That's because the case if in N.I. which is governed by UK law.

If the case happened in the Irish courts the Irish papers at least wouldn't have been allowed name them until after the case if a conviction is made.

This article shows how stringent it is.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...-question-of-anonymity-in-sex-cases-1.1708235

We do have a freedom of expression as well, it's just limit more than in countries like America.

 

[TRF_heineken]

That's because the case if in N.I. which is governed by UK law.

If the case happened in the Irish courts the Irish papers at least wouldn't have been allowed name them until after the case if a conviction is made.

This article shows how stringent it is.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...-question-of-anonymity-in-sex-cases-1.1708235

We do have a freedom of expression as well, it's just limit more than in countries like America.

Interesting, and thanx for the article.

Are the media allowed to post about the case while it's ongoing? Are they allowed to be present during the trial?

 

[big ginger 8]

Interesting, and thanx for the article.

Are the media allowed to post about the case while it's ongoing? Are they allowed to be present during the trial?

It's been a while since I studied criminal law but I believe they're allowed report on it but have to keep the names of the alleged perpetrator and the victim anonymous. This then leads to some details such as location being a bit more vague than in other criminal cases.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Are the media allowed to post about the case while it's ongoing? Are they allowed to be present during the trial?

They're allowed to report on it, but they can't name the accused or the victim. Generally reports are something along the lines of 'A 34 year old man has been charged with the rape of a 27 year old woman during October 2015 in Kildare.' Things like the area they're from etc are also generally there.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

For the sake of balance in media coverage there is an abundance of evidence that indicates the activity (at least at the outset) was entirely consensual including, but not limited to:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-43042561

Earlier the court heard that the complainer failed to mention to police that a woman entered the room in the middle of the activity and was in the room for up to a minute.

From some of the judge's remarks I expect him to drop a hint to the jury to acquit the accused. Whether they take that hint is another matter.

The visit to the "crime scene" will likely have been key as the jury may be left wondering how a forcible and sustained rape could take place in an unlocked room in a compact flat with various revellers of both sexes coming and going from room to room.

Edinburgh just cut two of their fly halfs. Jackson would be a good quality replacement but there is no way he'd get the job because his unsavoury private life has been spread across the media.

The various U.K. legal jurisdictions have a lot to learn from the likes of the Republic's rules on anonymity for accused.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

The various U.K. legal jurisdictions have a lot to learn from the likes of the Republic's rules on anonymity for accused.

Agree with this. I haven't been following the case too closely. Should they be found not guilty, the fact that details of their sex lives have been extensively posted about is massively unfair on them and may hinder future employment.

If they're guilty, name them and throw the book at them. If innocent, they've been tarnished by having their names released publicly. Sh*t sticks.

 

[munstermuffin]

Agree with this. I haven't been following the case too closely. Should they be found not guilty, the fact that details of their sex lives have been extensively posted about is massively unfair on them and may hinder future employment.

If they're guilty, name them and throw the book at them. If innocent, they've been tarnished by having their names released publicly. Sh*t sticks.

On this regardless of Verdict they are in a bad position. A lot of Ulster fans are religious and as many Ulster fans joke up there "You can do anything on a Sunday except enjoy yourself". They are tarnished as regardless of Verdict nobody will 100% believe them. What you will see is if they get off they will be off to France or UK

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Summing up is often pure "theatre" rather than a rigorous examination of the facts but Jackson's QC has impressed me from the quotes I've seen throughout - his point on the police failing to scrutinise the allegation is particularly pertinent as is pointing out how much noise would travel through walls in the flat (i.e. you'd have to have a mental impairment to try and get away with a forcible rape in such an environment).

A couple of articles below summing up the prosecution and the defence cases. The most notable passage in the two articles is possibly.

"The prosecution accepted that there were "differences" and "inconsistencies" between what the alleged victim told a doctor and what she later told the police."

Prosecution
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-43417587

Defence
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43432465

Paddy and Olding should be back for the next round of fixtures and hopefully the fans can forgive them for a promiscuous indiscretion.

The prosecution don't appear to have identified or presented a real case which may betray poor media coverage of their arguments or a lack of faith in the prosecution in the accuser. I suspect the latter as the prosecution allowed 9 men on the jury (out of 12) which again shows a lack of willingness to put in a real effort to nail the accused. I applaud that from the prosecution if they had misgivings about their client (the defence do that all the time too if they don't believe their client).

 

[Gavin]

The prosecution don't appear to have identified or presented a real case which may betray poor media coverage of their arguments or a lack of faith in the prosecution in the accuser. I suspect the latter as the prosecution allowed 9 men on the jury (out of 12) which again shows a lack of willingness to put in a real effort to nail the accused. I applaud that from the prosecution if they had misgivings about their client (the defence do that all the time too if they don't believe their client).

Neither the prosecution nor the defence can request to change jury members on a basis of their gender.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Neither the prosecution nor the defence can request to change jury members on a basis of their gender.

Neither the prosecution nor the defence can request to change jury members on a basis of their gender.

Right you are. I'm very surprised at that as it's pretty common to be selected for jury duty in Scotland but not make the final cut at trial (so I assumed there was an ability for the QCs to challenge the composition of the jury on various grounds as per the USA).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Speculating from what I've read I don't think the prosecution established a case at all. I think the four accused would have been better off not taking the stand because McIlroy was an awful witness who may have landed Olding in particular in hot water.

I think the inconsistencies in the complainants story are two much to ignore, especially how she originally complained of two counts of vaginal rape. Not upstanding men, but innocent I believe.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

So should they be found innocent, what do people think should happen in regards to the complainant? I know that nothing will happen to her but I am of the opinion that those who falsely accuse people should face some punishment themselves. In this case, even if found innocent, as people have pointed out it's likely to ruin the careers of Olding and Jackson in Ireland, entirely unfairly if innocent. Obviously it is a risky business as people can be found innocent and still have committed the crime, just due to a lack of evidence, so for me it's a case of where the line is drawn as it could potentially put off women who have legitimately been assaulted for fear of being persecuted. But something does have to be done, it's effectively slander with no repurcussions.