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Premiership 2024/2025 - The Final

Good on him.

Although when he was one of English rugby's great hopes I suspect he'd have been dreaming of more than 19 minutes off the bench in his club's biggest day for decades.
I know that being a loose cannon off the pitch is a big part of who he is and a big part of why his teammates love him, but I'd love to see him really lock in and get back into this kind of shape:
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Just can't see him ever really pushing for international honours in the shape he's currently in.
 
He has a few years to settle before being definitively considered to old, tbf to him he went through quite a few injuries, his club went bust and shifted positions, so a fair bit can understand him not taking things too seriously for a while, only he can decide if he wants to push, Tom Willis is head and shoulders above in the pecking order I would think but a couple of years older I believe.
 
He has a few years to settle before being definitively considered to old, tbf to him he went through quite a few injuries, his club went bust and shifted positions, so a fair bit can understand him not taking things too seriously for a while, only he can decide if he wants to push, Tom Willis is head and shoulders above in the pecking order I would think but a couple of years older I believe.
I think Willis is 26, Alfie 22, so yeah, plenty of time for him to push on if he wants it enough
 
I think Willis is 26, Alfie 22, so yeah, plenty of time for him to push on if he wants it enough

Erm 25 in October.

Barring a real injury crisis I just can't see him in the England picture. If it it looks like a front row forward, is built like a front row forward then it probably is a…by popular demand I'll shut up.
 
Erm 25 in October.

Barring a real injury crisis I just can't see him in the England picture. If it it looks like a front row forward, is built like a front row forward then it probably is a…by popular demand I'll shut up.
Damn really? It doesn't feel that long ago we were perpetually yelling about whether he'd carry on at hooker at 19 years old.
 
No excuse for him really. Needs to sort his rig and get big. Would help his game and his engine.
 
A lesson to all refs - be wary of retiring players with growing Youtube channels who can say what they want post retirement.
Probably shouldn't though.
Dan Cole is going to regret those words about "If I meant to cheap shot him, I should cheap shot him, get red carded, and hopefully get him off the field".

I have great sympathy for them, this was recorded less than 24 hours after their retirement, and such a huge, close loss.
Pretty sure the loser of every side feels aggrieved after any match for a good 24-48 hours before letting it go.
Which IMO means that they simply should have postponed the show by a day or two.

I'm absolutely sure that Cole didn't go up with the intention of receiving a yellow card - I'm sure he went in with the intention of charging down a kick - something he's quite possibly never done before; and he screwed up - he got his body position wrong, and his angle of jump wrong, then he compounded it by leading with his elbow - as shown in their own youtube video.
Sometimes, you screw up - and it hurts, but after a little time to reflect, you put your hands up and say "yeah, I shouldn't have done that" or "I should have done it differently" - he hadn't really had that time to reflect at the time of recording.

As for Youngs and his box-kick - he can give all the rationale he likes; and quote as many other SHs who do the same as he likes - if you're behind in the last minute of a match, you are always going to cop flak if you just give the ball away to your opponents.
In the context of the match, it was a classic example of not learning. You comment on how good Muir had been in the air all day; then you drop the ball on top of him with no real chasers. You comment on how Bath had only given away 2 penalties all day, both at scrum time; and your gambit is that, with 50 seconds to go, you'll get a kickable penalty? That's never the right decision - however much programming you've had to box-kick from a ruck in your own half, 5m from the sideline.


ETA: At some point, I'm going to re-watch the match, and try to put my bias aside, and Healey's bias aside; and see if I do think that either side got the general benefit of the ref.
At the time, it felt like Leicester got the benefit of the card decisions*; Bath were robbed of 1 try**; Dickson let a lot go from both sides; and that Bath got the benefit in terms of kickable penalties. It also felt that Bath had more attacking momentum than Leicester, and spent a lot more time playing in Leicester's half - that team tends to get the benefit from "rub of the green" decisions.


* I'm just about okay with yellow, but Montoya could very easily have seen ref - especially as, whilst dynamic, the ball carrier's head didn't dip at all (if anything, it bumps up)
** Even if we accept that Nicky Smith doesn't know what a rugby ball feels like when his hand touches one - it's still back off white, not a knock-on; so the ball is live, and Ewels (?) dotting the ball down is a try (assuming he didn't manage to drop it - I don't recall seeing any replays of that bit). I will also say that it took me until after the match to notice that miss.
** I know a lot of Bath fans are saying that Muir didn't knock the ball forwards, but I disagree - I can't really tell for the initial sideways movement, but he loses control on the ground, and the ball pops up at his shoulder, closer to the Tigers' try line - I think knock-on is accurate; even if Dickson was letting a lot of stuff go.
 
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It's such a sour and shitty tone to put out and I was quite enjoying some of their casts previously. It's a shame.

They're good interviewers and usually have a much more level headed take on what's happened during the weekend compared to podcasts that I shall not name here. (Pretty much every other rugby podcast tbh).

I think you're right that taking a bit more time to reflect would have been a better decision. But I suppose clicks always win out these days.
 
Healey's bias
IMO Healy isn't bias,
If anything it's like when people used to say Brian Moore was biased when commentating on the Six Nations, because he's English, but he was more critical of England than anyone - because he cared

Monye is the most biased of the lot, Flatman has toned his bias down a LOT since he started but definitely still leans towards Bath more than Kay/Healy do towards Leicester
 
The annoying thing about the Youngs kick is with Perese and Ilione our carrying was actually well into the ascendancy. Even from slow ball we managed to make yards, Bath defensive line was looking vulnerable. Like OHC, Perese, Kata, Ilione all suddenly started to get into it and Bath looked rattled, even our backs where all set up to attack Youngs didn't even look to see who was outside him to chase. Our Lineout maul was putting Bath under massive pressure so even if Bath gave a penalty 70m out we could've kicked long. Was dumb play but reality is it prob sums up his style the last 5 years or so.

Honestly outside of Montoya I feel Tigers needed these leavers now, Only Pollard and Julian are the leavers in the starting XV Pollard has not done what he was signed up for, JOC might not be a starting 10 but Searle can do what Pollard has done IMO. Blamire has bigger shoes to fill but hoping he can do a Radwan.
 
IMO Healy isn't bias,
If anything it's like when people used to say Brian Moore was biased when commentating on the Six Nations, because he's English, but he was more critical of England than anyone - because he cared

Monye is the most biased of the lot, Flatman has toned his bias down a LOT since he started but definitely still leans towards Bath more than Kay/Healy do towards Leicester

From what I have heard of Healey he tends to pick a team he likes before the game and sticks with them
And generally he favours hard the team that attacks most, he had a massive love in for Saints last season for example and was pretty scathing of Tigers non attack
 
IMO Healy isn't bias,
If anything it's like when people used to say Brian Moore was biased when commentating on the Six Nations, because he's English, but he was more critical of England than anyone - because he cared

Monye is the most biased of the lot, Flatman has toned his bias down a LOT since he started but definitely still leans towards Bath more than Kay/Healy do towards Leicester
Kay was fine.
Healey isn't normally biased; but it really felt that he was at the weekend - and I don't blame him for that; he bleeds Leicester.
Even when he's not biased though, he has a habit of losing a little objectivity if things (usually ref's decisions) don't pan out to his liking. Not badly, but enough.

I absolutely reserve the right to think similarly of myself - I generally try pretty hard to not be biased in my comments; but I absolutely fail on occasion. When I watch it back outside of the heat of the moment, I may find that Healey was actually fine.
 
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Probably shouldn't though.
Dan Cole is going to regret those words about "If I meant to cheap shot him, I should cheap shot him, get red carded, and hopefully get him off the field".

I have great sympathy for them, this was recorded less than 24 hours after their retirement, and such a huge, close loss.
Pretty sure the loser of every side feels aggrieved after any match for a good 24-48 hours before letting it go.
Which IMO means that they simply should have postponed the show by a day or two.

I'm absolutely sure that Cole didn't go up with the intention of receiving a yellow card - I'm sure he went in with the intention of charging down a kick - something he's quite possibly never done before; and he screwed up - he got his body position wrong, and his angle of jump wrong, then he compounded it by leading with his elbow - as shown in their own youtube video.
Sometimes, you screw up - and it hurts, but after a little time to reflect, you put your hands up and say "yeah, I shouldn't have done that" or "I should have done it differently" - he hadn't really had that time to reflect at the time of recording.

As for Youngs and his box-kick - he can give all the rationale he likes; and quote as many other SHs who do the same as he likes - if you're behind in the last minute of a match, you are always going to cop flak if you just give the ball away to your opponents.
In the context of the match, it was a classic example of not learning. You comment on how good Muir had been in the air all day; then you drop the ball on top of him with no real chasers. You comment on how Bath had only given away 2 penalties all day, both at scrum time; and your gambit is that, with 50 seconds to go, you'll get a kickable penalty? That's never the right decision - however much programming you've had to box-kick from a ruck in your own half, 5m from the sideline.


ETA: At some point, I'm going to re-watch the match, and try to put my bias aside, and Healey's bias aside; and see if I do think that either side got the general benefit of the ref.
At the time, it felt like Leicester got the benefit of the card decisions*; Bath were robbed of 1 try**; Dickson let a lot go from both sides; and that Bath got the benefit in terms of kickable penalties. It also felt that Bath had more attacking momentum than Leicester, and spent a lot more time playing in Leicester's half - that team tends to get the benefit from "rub of the green" decisions.


* I'm just about okay with yellow, but Montoya could very easily have seen ref - especially as, whilst dynamic, the ball carrier's head didn't dip at all (if anything, it bumps up)
** Even if we accept that Nicky Smith doesn't know what a rugby ball feels like when his hand touches one - it's still back off white, not a knock-on; so the ball is live, and Ewels (?) dotting the ball down is a try (assuming he didn't manage to drop it - I don't recall seeing any replays of that bit). I will also say that it took me until after the match to notice that miss.
** I know a lot of Bath fans are saying that Muir didn't knock the ball forwards, but I disagree - I can't really tell for the initial sideways movement, but he loses control on the ground, and the ball pops up at his shoulder, closer to the Tigers' try line - I think knock-on is accurate; even if Dickson was letting a lot of stuff go.

I wrote that post straight after the game and before Cole and Youngs made their video but I agree with your analysis.

I assume they decided to release the video while the game was fresh in people's minds to maximise clicks but unfortunately it looks like the dust hadn't quite settled emotionally especially with Dan.
 
** I know a lot of Bath fans are saying that Muir didn't knock the ball forwards, but I disagree - I can't really tell for the initial sideways movement, but he loses control on the ground, and the ball pops up at his shoulder, closer to the Tigers' try line - I think knock-on is accurate; even if Dickson was letting a lot of stuff go.

Was that the Pepper try? If so that was accurate reffing, never thought I'd ever say that about a Dickson decision, at first I thought that was a magnificent take by the no 11, the whole move afterwards was sensational as well. Shame it rolled a bit forward but it was forward.

IMO Healy isn't bias,
If anything it's like when people used to say Brian Moore was biased when commentating on the Six Nations, because he's English, but he was more critical of England than anyone - because he cared

Moore was a dirty player, but brilliant as a commentator and pundit. Personally any bias he had, very little, was very much offset by accurate criticism of both teams. He said it like it was.

As a Scot I never noticed any real bias from him unlike a certain Welshman.
 

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