Ring fencing premiership and championship

[Which Tyler]

£22M per year for 10 years?
Are you sure that isn't the total over 10 years because... that just doesn't pass the sniff test.

As Olly says - it's certainly not coming out even close to that level at the club/player level

2nd thought: or is it the entirety of the women's game, from the England squad right the way down to grassroots promotion? so spread over something like 1500 clubs

3rd thought: or maybe like the early days of the Premiership, where RFU held the TV and advertising revenues, so the RFU's "payments" to the clubs, was simple distribution of those funds, rather than being actual payments from the RFU to the Premiership clubs?

 

[will311293]

This was the only paragraph about Championship in the whole report.

"Regarding the Championship Review, the Championship Transition Group reports to the Board and Council as it oversees the agreed direction of travel put forward by the Championship Strategic Review Group endorsed by Board and Council, Premier Rugby and the Championship Clubs Committee. Next season will look at governance arrangements. In season2023/24 there will be a 'proof of concept' cup competition alongside the existing Championship league. This would involve establishing which clubs want to enter the competition alone and which to establish a partnership arrangement to enter a side, as well as the competition window and regulations around the make-up and profile of match day squad players. We would also establish competition regulations, minimum standards, and the entry criteria. The development of the second tier of the English game is very important to us. We believe this initiative will help in our goal to make Championship clubs more sustainable, increase their competitiveness, and offer player development opportunities for young English talent."

Also say in 2021/22, club funding to Mens, Womens Prem and Championship was £26.7m....

 

[will311293]

£22M per year for 10 years?
Are you sure that isn't the total over 10 years because... that just doesn't pass the sniff test.

As Olly says - it's certainly not coming out even close to that level at the club/player level

2nd thought: or is it the entirety of the women's game, from the England squad right the way down to grassroots promotion? so spread over something like 1500 clubs

3rd thought: or maybe like the early days of the Premiership, where RFU held the TV and advertising revenues, so the RFU's "payments" to the clubs, was simple distribution of those funds, rather than being actual payments from the RFU to the Premiership clubs?

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/3c/3c392c15-090b-455e-991a-30653bc4c855/AnnualReport2022.pdf Bottom of Page 18 & top of 19, i wish i was kidding.

 

[will311293]

£22M per year for 10 years?
Are you sure that isn't the total over 10 years because... that just doesn't pass the sniff test.

As Olly says - it's certainly not coming out even close to that level at the club/player level

2nd thought: or is it the entirety of the women's game, from the England squad right the way down to grassroots promotion? so spread over something like 1500 clubs

3rd thought: or maybe like the early days of the Premiership, where RFU held the TV and advertising revenues, so the RFU's "payments" to the clubs, was simple distribution of those funds, rather than being actual payments from the RFU to the Premiership clubs?

Points 2 and 3 are very valid and maybe that's the case but it still seems excessive.
On point 2 - There's no more detail bar that paragraph but doubt its for all clubs otherwise would work out 15k roughly each year. I'd imagine they will be looking at structuring more like mens game, so funding down to maybe Nat 2 level? but that requires the womens game reaching the 100k number sport england/RFU want to reach by 2027.

point 3 - this could be the case, i think Allianz15s is free? and BBC sport would be too (obviously tv licence adds in).

Something just doesn't add up and the lack of explanation baffles me.

 

[Which Tyler]

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/3c/3c392c15-090b-455e-991a-30653bc4c855/AnnualReport2022.pdf Bottom of Page 18 & top of 19, i wish i was kidding.
View attachment 18004

Thank you.
From that, it's also about setting up a new company from the ground up, what looks to be a womens PRL (hopefully with lessons learnt from the mens version - one of the few organisations to make the RFU look competent and ethical).
On my 2nd thought - obviously not the case from that screenshot - it's specifically for the womens professional game.
I also suspect that the words "up to" are doing a lot of heavy lifting there - if the game takes off to our most optimistic estimate AND no external investors come forth, then we could go up to £220M (AKA £22M per year, or say £1.8M per club per year - for salaries and facilities for players and coaches, with a spare £4M per year for the national 15s and 7s squads)

As you say - there's precious little detail in there - but then, it's a financial statement, not a press release.

point 3 - this could be the case, i think Allianz15s is free? and BBC sport would be too (obviously tv licence adds in).

Wait... are you saying Allianz get to be title sponsors... for free?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

If you read the actual RFU strategy report for the premier 15's it says it plans to invest more around £48 million with clubs over 10 years in the premier 15's

The rest of the £220 million is what they hope the game will be able to bring in by itself (Sponsors, TV deals, Ticket, sales, Gov grants etc) and I guess a commitment to reinvest that money during that 10 years

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/20/20310f58-f273-4c01-a100-0fe01800a00f/Premier%2015s%203.0%20Strategy%20Document%2030%20June.pdf

Page 4 (point c)

"Achieving this ambitious vision and mission for the league will require significant investment. The
overall cost of the league will total £222m over a ten year period, with projected revenues expected
to be £174m. From 2023/24 the RFU and clubs will invest the remaining £48m"


JB has a certain bias against women's rugby, so I guess didn't bother to read into it properly I guess since it fits is angle. Kinda lazy

 

[Which Tyler]

JB?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

JB?

Presenter on EggChasers podcast,
Cantankerous to say the least

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm guessing that's all she wrote, then

 

[will311293]

Thank you.
From that, it's also about setting up a new company from the ground up, what looks to be a womens PRL (hopefully with lessons learnt from the mens version - one of the few organisations to make the RFU look competent and ethical).
On my 2nd thought - obviously not the case from that screenshot - it's specifically for the womens professional game.
I also suspect that the words "up to" are doing a lot of heavy lifting there - if the game takes off to our most optimistic estimate AND no external investors come forth, then we could go up to £220M (AKA £22M per year, or say £1.8M per club per year - for salaries and facilities for players and coaches, with a spare £4M per year for the national 15s and 7s squads)

As you say - there's precious little detail in there - but then, it's a financial statement, not a press release.


Wait... are you saying Allianz get to be title sponsors... for free?

No sorry, the viewing/streaming is free as far as i am aware. I think Allainz sponsors both mens and womens for 1.2m but thats all hearsay.

 

[will311293]

If you read the actual RFU strategy report for the premier 15's it says it plans to invest more around £48 million with clubs over 10 years in the premier 15's

The rest of the £220 million is what they hope the game will be able to bring in by itself (Sponsors, TV deals, Ticket, sales, Gov grants etc) and I guess a commitment to reinvest that money during that 10 years

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/20/20310f58-f273-4c01-a100-0fe01800a00f/Premier%2015s%203.0%20Strategy%20Document%2030%20June.pdf

Page 4 (point c)

"Achieving this ambitious vision and mission for the league will require significant investment. The
overall cost of the league will total £222m over a ten year period, with projected revenues expected
to be £174m. From 2023/24 the RFU and clubs will invest the remaining £48m"


JB has a certain bias against women's rugby, so I guess didn't bother to read into it properly I guess since it fits is angle. Kinda lazy

Fair enough, hadn't seen this document. I am still fairly unsure that this will be generated through those routes as I just don't see the uptake.
Yeah JB really does have an axe to grind regarding women's rugby, my worry is i still don't think these numbers are feasible but we will see the outcome.

My axe was more aimed and that the championship in its current form feels very much a sinking ship and unless the RFU figures out how they make the championship either more profitable or provide further funding and oversight we may see more clubs at risk.

 

[will311293]

I'm guessing that's all she wrote, then

Sad reading.... great club but I just don't see how they come back from it unless RFU funding, Govt funding or sugar daddy.

Do we know how the other clubs in the champ are doing financially? Always thought clubs like Coventry, Nottingham, Pirates seem well run and Ealing have a sugar daddy but no idea about others.

 

[will311293]

Also interestingly enough, saw on the Cornish Pirates Forum, a petition has already been started for him to resign. https://chng.it/md9bDLGWpV

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I've heard that Cornish Pirates are going semi-pro next season, not sure if that's confirmed or just rumour

Ealing are spending astronomically beyond their means - their current owner is happy to pay out of his pocket but he's 87 and I saw somewhere that his family have said they're not interested in taking over the club when he passes, so that's very shaky ground.
Not too dissimilar to the situation that most Prem clubs are in (relying on a sugar daddy) tbf, but Champ clubs even less enticing to investors/sponsors than Prem ones

 

[will311293]

I have also seen a statement on the Wasps board from a fan whose fairly close to everything going on that Wasps have funding approved by RFU and will start Prem 2.

All rumours at the moment, but makes sense with Chris Holland purchasing Worcester and Sixways, looking to use/lease the stadium for 5 years... presumably on a very low rate/no fee from May 2024.
Holland will continue to protect the Worcester Warriors entity until someone suitable qualified to purchase comes forward.

I reckon this suggest we could see a Wasps MK2 making a comeback in 2024 if the Prem 2 comes to fruition or taking a place in the champ in some format. All rumours at the moment but could see Irish looking at the Prem 2 as a way back as well.

 

[SG59_]

Just in time to watch the RFU fall apart and watch as the owners run off

 

[Booboobang]

This doesnt need to be this difficult. France have literally shown the model for making a rugby pyramid work in a sustainable manner that drives investment to lower levels as well as top tier, but then that requires prem clubs to give up a portion for the good of the game wich I dont see happening. If you arent going to do that the only other option is franchising, completly ring fence the game.

What doesnt work is this current system where you have a franchise model in the premiership in all but name where rich owners prop up the league, that is now ring fenced, but then pretending there is still a feasible pyramid underneath it.

Nothing Sweeney has said actualy addresses any problems, just more continuing on this road where clubs wil go under at any time unless they have a backer. Strategy for growing revenue like collective bargaining? No thats up to the clubs. Financial support with coupled business support to push towards a sustainable business model? No go bust, not an RFU problem.

The more teams go bust the more regions of england that will become disenfranchised, wont focus on rugby and the game continues to shrink.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

France have literally shown the model for making a rugby pyramid work in a sustainable manner that drives investment to lower levels as well as top tier, but then that requires prem clubs to give up a portion for the good of the game wich I dont see happening. If you arent going to do that the only other option is franchising, completly ring fence the game.

How much oversight does the FRU have on the Top 14? Whenever I've heard about it it's always the FRU and LNR (their version of the PRL) at loggerheads

 

[die_mole]

I'd love to know how France has actually got things going but it seems underreported. Basically teams have to submit financial statements at the beginning of the statement of each season and amateur clubs have to get approval for promotion by halfway of season. Those are really only the two things I know.

I'll say that it would be helpful for getting investment if people knew what the league would look like. Both PRL and RFU share the blame on that.

 

[will311293]

How much oversight does the FRU have on the Top 14? Whenever I've heard about it it's always the FRU and LNR (their version of the PRL) at loggerheads

The French arguing with each other? disagreements, lack of organisation and cohesion. never