Sonny Bill Williams confirmed to leave New Zealand

[admartian]

Right so any squad player that didn;t play the majority of the games for any team that has won the world cup can't really call themselves world cup winners. Great logic pal. Better ring up Dan Carter and tell him he isn't actually a world cup winner after all, he will be in for a major surprise.

I think what he's trying to say that he was more of a passenger. Yes, he's technically a world cup winner.

Think of it more like some scrub that played with Michael Jordan or some bench warmer in any team to win any championship - read: not really influential in the process.

Regarding Dan Carter, he was injured, and would have played in all the matches that he could have. SBW on the other hand, was fit, and was put on against lesser sides and/or to close out games.

No one was saying that he didn't receive a medal.

 

[Rhyer]

I remember reading that Carter said he didn't feel like he won the RWC 2011 which is why it's his desire to win the 2015 one.

 

[Rhyer]

I think what he's trying to say that he was more of a passenger. Yes, he's technically a world cup winner.

Think of it more like some scrub that played with Michael Jordan or some bench warmer in any team to win any championship - read: not really influential in the process.

Regarding Dan Carter, he was injured, and would have played in all the matches that he could have. SBW on the other hand, was fit, and was put on against lesser sides and/or to close out games.

No one was saying that he didn't receive a medal.

Thank you. This is my point. Maybe I put things the wrong way.

 

[Shaggy]

I don't know how effective a long term replacement Tamati Ellison would be seeing as he's less than 11 months younger than Ma'a Nonu.

I think the situations you mentioned are different entirely. Tim Bateman and Tamati Ellison are products of the New Zealand rugby system, all of whom would have returned on I'd imagine average salaries and have recieved no preferential treatment. Sonny Bill Williams was bought by New Zealand with a contract which other players couldn't demand. Ignoring money (I'm sure it wasn't a heck of a lot more than most senior players in Super Rugby at a starting rate, with further financial increases if/when he was promised to make the All Blacks, ontop of other media endorcements), it's the fact that he did recieve oppertunities that others didn't.

In 2010 the All Blacks killed everyone, yet the only new cap on the end of year tour was Sonny Bill Williams off a handful of NPC games in which other players such as Robbie Fruean looked better. You can compare that to Tim Bateman and Tamati Ellison getting starting spots in Super Rugby if you like, but the reality is that they had already come through the New Zealand system and proved they were the best avalible and on performance they earned it. Bringing in a novice player to invest highly in him, rather than investing in proven NZ rugby products will always be different to me and I think the NZRU's treatment of SBW is pretty disgusting.

That being said, like I've always said, good on him for him to take what he can get. Loyalty is something I respect in a player and it's something that I think SBW lacks, but I don't think he ever pretended to care about New Zealand rugby in the long run. Some of his BS about always wanting to be an All Black as a kid annoys me, as I think it's ingenuine when considering he's now leaving after not much more than a year of professional rugby in New Zealand and players like Hosea Gear who you know it means the world to miss out, but you have to credit him (and his agent and PR) for going and getting what ever he wants.

Yeah, well at the risk of flogging a dead horse ... I still think the two situations are remarkably similar (even though the amount of money may be different) ... the fact that SBW has developed his skills in a rival code is irrelevant to me, in fact, as I've already mentioned, I think it's a bigger loss to NZ Rugby, when a player that the NZRU has put time (and money) into, over a number of years, takes up a contract overseas or with a rival club. After all, you could argue that those coaching and development resources could have been better used on another player that would stay in New Zealand.

With respect Nick, the game is now professional, and just as we in the real world have to compete with others from within the organisations we work for, and with people from outside of the organisation, or positions. We also have the option to take our skills elsewhere for a better deal (as SBW, Bateman, Ellison, and numerous others have chosen to do from time to time).

Loyalty, fairness, whether you like the player, and potential ability, don't have much to do with it in today's rugby world unfortunately.

PS. Zeq I now you can't have too many options on your poll, but for what it's worth o he's not overrated (on current form, he's the best number 12 in NZ IMO), is it a good thing for the NZRU, well , it's a fact of life that they are going to lose a few players from time to time, (I don't think they were worried about his behavour) ... same with the bad option ... it's okay, because someone will make the most of the opportunity to fill the vacancy

 

[Zapphod]

I remember reading that Carter said he didn't feel like he won the RWC 2011 which is why it's his desire to win the 2015 one.

I recall that as well which is nice but I am not sure he will be at the next world cup as our starting 10, he will be what 32-33?

With the abundance of good young players vying for his position I think it will be hard for him to retain the position.

PS. Zeq I now you can't have too many options on your poll, but for what it's worth o he's not overrated (on current form, he's the best number 12 in NZ IMO), is it a good thing for the NZRU, well , it's a fact of life that they are going to lose a few players from time to time, (I don't think they were worried about his behavour) ... same with the bad option ... it's okay, because someone will make the most of the opportunity to fill the vacancy

Not so sure about that two thirds of those who have responded so far (5 out of 9) seem to prefer the option.

Yeah he is overrated and overhyped and sadly over here, I think it is also debatable whether he is the form 12 in NZ at the moment.
I will concede that he is probably in the top 5 number 12s in the country right now but given the amount of time and money spent on the team around him and the training he has been given at All Black level he is not head and shoulders above the other four.

Personally I don't think he was a bad player but I really don't think he was the great player that all his sycophants made him out to be, in my opinion he remains the Paris Hilton of New Zealand rugby, famous for being famous and not for any outstanding talent.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I think what he's trying to say that he was more of a passenger. Yes, he's technically a world cup winner.

Think of it more like some scrub that played with Michael Jordan or some bench warmer in any team to win any championship - read: not really influential in the process.

Regarding Dan Carter, he was injured, and would have played in all the matches that he could have. SBW on the other hand, was fit, and was put on against lesser sides and/or to close out games.

No one was saying that he didn't receive a medal.

Maybe Carter was a bad example. Guildford then, didn't play in the big games but is still a world cup winning All Black.

Nobody is going to argue that SBW wasn't necessary for the AB's to win the world cup, but you can't really take that away from him based on the fact he wasn't most influential player. It gets pretty murky when you start trying to qualify who are true winners based on their input and whether they were influential, whether that be Zac Guildford/SBW with the AB's or Bill Wennington with the Chicago Bulls with Jordan back in the day. Technically, figuratively, literally, whatever, they all won.

 

[admartian]

I remember reading that Carter said he didn't feel like he won the RWC 2011 which is why it's his desire to win the 2015 one.

Yeah I remember seeing something about that after the RWC last year.

Maybe Carter was a bad example. Guildford then, didn't play in the big games but is still a world cup winning All Black.

Nobody is going to argue that SBW wasn't necessary for the AB's to win the world cup, but you can't really take that away from him based on the fact he wasn't most influential player. It gets pretty murky when you start trying to qualify who are true winners based on their input and whether they were influential, whether that be Zac Guildford/SBW with the AB's or Bill Wennington with the Chicago Bulls with Jordan back in the day. Technically, figuratively, literally, whatever, they all won.

I think we're more or less on the same page. We understand that

I'm not trying to say he didn't win it, but like Guildford, he probably won't be seen as a guy who's "Won it" - as say someone like Brad Thorn, Jerome Kaino, even Donald; or most other guys, did, and will likely be heralded (in pubs...with song...by bards/jesters...? I dunno).

Guys like SBW and Guuldford etc can certainly tick it off the list, but as Rhyer said, even someone like DC will feel like he hasn't really done it yet and will be roaring for it in 2015.

That's all it is.

 

[Darwin]

I recall that as well which is nice but I am not sure he will be at the next world cup as our starting 10, he will be what 32-33?

With the abundance of good young players vying for his position I think it will be hard for him to retain the position.



Not so sure about that two thirds of those who have responded so far (5 out of 9) seem to prefer the option.

Yeah he is overrated and overhyped and sadly over here, I think it is also debatable whether he is the form 12 in NZ at the moment.
I will concede that he is probably in the top 5 number 12s in the country right now but given the amount of time and money spent on the team around him and the training he has been given at All Black level he is not head and shoulders above the other four.

Personally I don't think he was a bad player but I really don't think he was the great player that all his sycophants made him out to be, in my opinion he remains the Paris Hilton of New Zealand rugby, famous for being famous and not for any outstanding talent.

That is not even remotely debatable in my opinion - SBW has been head and shoulders above any other 12 in the country based on Super Rugby form. Indeed I'd say he has undoubtedly been the form 12 of the entire competition. If he was available for the Rugby Championship I would be 50/50 as to whether I would start him of Nonu at 12, as Nonu has starting to show some good form in recent weeks (and has been the best 12 in world rugby over the last 3-4 years IMO). While I certainly think people are more than justified in attacking SBW for his commitment (or lack there-of), there is no doubt he has evolved into a international quality rugby player over the last couple of seasons....

 

[Sam Owen]

That is not even remotely debatable in my opinion - SBW has been head and shoulders above any other 12 in the country based on Super Rugby form. Indeed I'd say he has undoubtedly been the form 12 of the entire competition. If he was available for the Rugby Championship I would be 50/50 as to whether I would start him of Nonu at 12, as Nonu has starting to show some good form in recent weeks (and has been the best 12 in world rugby over the last 3-4 years IMO). While I certainly think people are more than justified in attacking SBW for his commitment (or lack there-of), there is no doubt he has evolved into a international quality rugby player over the last couple of seasons....

Agreed 100%. Anyone that knows and can see 2012 Super Rugby (e.g. Dan Carter, Chiefs, All Blacks coaching staff, loads of Super players and etc) can tell you that Sonny is the in-form top 12 at the moment. When he was with the 'Saders last year, many were saying that it was his team and now he's with the Chiefs they're saying the same thing. Yes it is the team first and foremost, but lets give his 'Saders and Chiefs teamates a poll on how much he contributes on the field, not a poll on this thread where the SBW haters have been on stand by to fire away.

Some people just dont like some players to the point it blinds them. You've got to see them for the way they play, the Rugby, even the ones you dont like.