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South Africa vs England - 04/07/26

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Reiser99 said:
Nope, that would mean the RFU admitting they ****** up two world cup cycles in a row.
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Agreed. No matter how much we'd like a change, the RFU aren't going to change mid-tournament and then the end of the year is way too late in the WC cycle. If we're really lucky the inquest into the WC won't result in "We still believe Steve is the man to carry us forward but the other coaches are sacked"
 
TRF_Olyy said:
The answer is clear, imo - it's the coaches and the gameplan

The telling thing is that all the media people who were drinking the kool aid before are now actually noticing


Latter points more to the former than the mid

Borthwick is massively out of his depth and grasping at things in the dark - Smith in the press saying he only wants to play 10, he's playing 10 for his club and actually playing pretty well despite Quins being in disarray,
Borthwick's spreadsheet tells him he should actually be playing fullback instead so that's what he tells him he has to be

I don't blame the clubs for Borthwick being the worst coach England has ever had
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But if your clubs and the league play to a style that creates faster more athletic players at the cost of some juggernaughts the knock on effect will be a dearth for international level.

Currently we just dont have many players who dominate games physically..who smash collisions. Its why everyone was so happy with Sam Underhill and Genge. Because they were guys who COULD do that. George Martin is another one of the rare exceptions and hes barely played due to injury. When hes out...we have noone. Lots of athletic rangy quality locks (Itoje, Chessum and Coles) but they need the heavy duty guys beside them.

Similar in the back row...and the irony is that we are missing that hard carrying midfielder (hence why the push for BHVR) but 2 players Sam SImmonds and Earl could have been exactly the centres we're crying for.

Away from that you have other issues such as the breakdown refereed slightly different to international rugby, so players instantly then need to adapt their game....

Borthwick is not blameless by any means but im not sure its all down to him.

Anyway ill leave it there.

Lets just see how we go from now to the world cup
 
Geordie said:
TRF_Olyy said:
The answer is clear, imo - it's the coaches and the gameplan

The telling thing is that all the media people who were drinking the kool aid before are now actually noticing


Latter points more to the former than the mid

Borthwick is massively out of his depth and grasping at things in the dark - Smith in the press saying he only wants to play 10, he's playing 10 for his club and actually playing pretty well despite Quins being in disarray,
Borthwick's spreadsheet tells him he should actually be playing fullback instead so that's what he tells him he has to be

I don't blame the clubs for Borthwick being the worst coach England has ever had
Click to expand...
But if your clubs and the league play to a style that creates faster more athletic players at the cost of some juggernaughts the knock on effect will be a dearth for international level.

Currently we just dont have many players who dominate games physically..who smash collisions. Its why everyone was so happy with Sam Underhill and Genge. Because they were guys who COULD do that. George Martin is another one of the rare exceptions and hes barely played due to injury. When hes out...we have noone. Lots of athletic rangy quality locks (Itoje, Chessum and Coles) but they need the heavy duty guys beside them.

Similar in the back row...and the irony is that we are missing that hard carrying midfielder (hence why the push for BHVR) but 2 players Sam SImmonds and Earl could have been exactly the centres we're crying for.

Away from that you have other issues such as the breakdown refereed slightly different to international rugby, so players instantly then need to adapt their game....

Borthwick is not blameless by any means but im not sure its all down to him.

Anyway ill leave it there.

Lets just see how we go from now to the world cup
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But your international tactics should be based on your club games and what’s available not the other way round.

And more importantly, why don’t our tactics mirror our selections? Why are we selecting 3 locks in a massive pack and then not kicking the ball into touch? We are not playing with the tools we have, we are playing against the tools we have and that’s why things arnt working.

You can try and blame the premiership all you want but the premiership constantly produces a ton of players all with different styles etc. the point is for the England head coach to pick a style that suits them.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
But your international tactics should be based on your club games and what’s available not the other way round.

And more importantly, why don’t our tactics mirror our selections? Why are we selecting 3 locks in a massive pack and then not kicking the ball into touch? We are not playing with the tools we have, we are playing against the tools we have and that’s why things arnt working.

You can try and blame the premiership all you want but the premiership constantly produces a ton of players all with different styles etc. the point is for the England head coach to pick a style that suits them.
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Im not solely blaming the prem but its playing a part.

The other question of course is...does 7s style defence is optional club rugby build for success at international level...?
 
Average tries conceded isn't even that different the last two seasons, the issue is the difference between the top and the bottom
Top 4 average tries this vs last 1.5tries difference

Whole league is 4.9 tries, but if you remove Newcastle from this/last year it's 1.1 difference
 
Geordie said:
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
But your international tactics should be based on your club games and what’s available not the other way round.

And more importantly, why don’t our tactics mirror our selections? Why are we selecting 3 locks in a massive pack and then not kicking the ball into touch? We are not playing with the tools we have, we are playing against the tools we have and that’s why things arnt working.

You can try and blame the premiership all you want but the premiership constantly produces a ton of players all with different styles etc. the point is for the England head coach to pick a style that suits them.
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Im not solely blaming the prem but its playing a part.

The other question of course is...does 7s style defence is optional club rugby build for success at international level...?
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Where is the evidence for this defence is optional narrative that’s been creeping in?

Is that different from the URC and top 14? Do they have similar score margins? Are we seeing more teams throwing away games and that’s why we get some big scores?

Or is the attack just so good but then also leaves you vulnerable to turnover ball.

There’s no evidence that I’ve seen that suggests defence is optional. Do you have any?
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
Where is the evidence for this defence is optional narrative that’s been creeping in?

Is that different from the URC and top 14? Do they have similar score margins? Are we seeing more teams throwing away games and that’s why we get some big scores?

Or is the attack just so good but then also leaves you vulnerable to turnover ball.

There’s no evidence that I’ve seen that suggests defence is optional. Do you have any?
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Maybe it's a Newcastle thing...
:)
 
Ddanno said:
Absolutely amazing that anyone would jettison Genge, Itoje and George
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George should be falling away from the team or 3rd choice now but we just havmt got anyone ready or experienced enough to take over or anyone playing well enough.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
Average tries conceded isn't even that different the last two seasons, the issue is the difference between the top and the bottom
Top 4 average tries this vs last 1.5tries difference

Whole league is 4.9 tries, but if you remove Newcastle from this/last year it's 1.1 difference
Click to expand...
Borthers leant me his spreadsheet so I can’t confirm whether all the inputs are right but the results kind of confirm what I’ve been seeing with my own eyes.

As far as I can see, total regular season Prem tries per match from 20/1 to 25/6:

5.7, 6.6, 7, 7, 7.9, 8.6.

There can be distortions with rubbish teams at the bottom and some years there have been a couple, but Falcons scoring pattern is interesting.

In the 10 team leagues they scored 30 tries in 23/4, increased that by 30% to 39 in 24/5 and then by a further 35% to 47 in 25/6. So even the league’s most consistently anaemic team has increasingly found a way through.

You can (dis)prove anything you like with stats. But it does seem that D now holds less sway - whether that’s because it’s increasingly hard to stop good attacking play or because the coaches have gone all Kevin Keegan I don’t know. But we’ve also seen some 6N scorelines in recent years that would have been unthinkable not so long ago.
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
Borthers leant me his spreadsheet so I can’t confirm whether all the inputs are right but the results kind of confirm what I’ve been seeing with my own eyes.

As far as I can see, total regular season Prem tries per match from 20/1 to 25/6:

5.7, 6.6, 7, 7, 7.9, 8.6.

There can be distortions with rubbish teams at the bottom and some years there have been a couple, but Falcons scoring pattern is interesting.

In the 10 team leagues they scored 30 tries in 23/4, increased that by 30% to 39 in 24/5 and then by a further 35% to 47 in 25/6. So even the league’s most consistently anaemic team has increasingly found a way through.

You can (dis)prove anything you like with stats. But it does seem that D now holds less sway - whether that’s because it’s increasingly hard to stop good attacking play or because the coaches have gone all Kevin Keegan I don’t know. But we’ve also seen some 6N scorelines in recent years that would have been unthinkable not so long ago.
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I think refs are currently favouring the attacking side. Recent law changes, the 50-22. SA pushing for the maul to be policed better, kick chase stopping blockers so it is now either a contest or kick and hit etc, It all tends to favour the team in attack.

When everyone went all in on the Blitz, coaches got smarter about attack and moving the ball.

It goes in cycles I think and at the moment attack is king
 
And I think will stay that way as everything World Rugby has done in terms of rule changes etc have been to encourage a faster, more dynamic, spectator friendly game. That’s pretty much aka more tries and I don’t see that genie going back in the bottle.

All this full circles back to why the Pollocks of this world are more likely to become the future superstars than the gnarly, hard bitten flankers of yore.
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
And I think will stay that way as everything World Rugby has done in terms of rule changes etc have been to encourage a faster, more dynamic, spectator friendly game. That’s pretty much aka more tries and I don’t see that genie going back in the bottle.

All this full circles back to why the Pollocks of this world are more likely to become the future superstars than the gnarly, hard bitten flankers of yore.
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Ideally we need a mix of both (which is why ive bored everyone senseless over the last few days) SA are currently showing you still need a good amount of power in there....but they have adapted their game now.
 
Geordie said:
Ideally we need a mix of both (which is why ive bored everyone senseless over the last few days) SA are currently showing you still need a good amount of power in there....but they have adapted their game now.
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Yep, I thought they had a great balance in their play.

For the most part their pack kept it simple, aggressive and direct. I winced a couple of times when I saw Martin trying pull backs, but absolutely loved the directness of his try.
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
Yep, I thought they had a great balance in their play.

For the most part their pack kept it simple, aggressive and direct. I winced a couple of times when I saw Martin trying pull backs, but absolutely loved the directness of his try.
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Martin is one of the very few genuine options we have who actually matches the Bok power. Undehill would be another.

Id like to see a few more coming through to balance / compliment the athletic guys we have. Guys that can actually make yards from a standing start (like Billy and Mako Vunipola used to) If we can get that it opens to door for the likes of Earl to play his normal game, running in the wider channels rather than having to do all the hard slog in heavy traffic.
 
Geordie said:
Vieux Talonneur said:
Yep, I thought they had a great balance in their play.

For the most part their pack kept it simple, aggressive and direct. I winced a couple of times when I saw Martin trying pull backs, but absolutely loved the directness of his try.
Click to expand...
Martin is one of the very few genuine options we have who actually matches the Bok power. Undehill would be another.

Id like to see a few more coming through to balance / compliment the athletic guys we have. Guys that can actually make yards from a standing start (like Billy and Mako Vunipola used to) If we can get that it opens to door for the likes of Earl to play his normal game, running in the wider channels rather than having to do all the hard slog in heavy traffic.
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There was this great 8 at sarries who does that, think his name is Willis?

In all seriousness would be good to see some of those bigger 8 options back in the prem. maybe if we feed pollock loads of pies he’ll bulk up enough but I don’t think you’d ever be able to make a player like Tom Willis unless they are naturally bigger in the first place .
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
There was this great 8 at sarries who does that, think his name is Willis?

In all seriousness would be good to see some of those bigger 8 options back in the prem. maybe if we feed pollock loads of pies he’ll bulk up enough but I don’t think you’d ever be able to make a player like Tom Willis unless they are naturally bigger in the first place .
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I know people have very entrenched views on TW, but as far as I can see a lot of that is supposition. I so want to hear the whole story one day.

Still blows my mind that the reigning Prem and Top 14 players of the year are English, but not eligible for our national team. They knew the rules and all that, but kind of hard to see Rassie putting up with that.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
There was this great 8 at sarries who does that, think his name is Willis?

In all seriousness would be good to see some of those bigger 8 options back in the prem. maybe if we feed pollock loads of pies he’ll bulk up enough but I don’t think you’d ever be able to make a player like Tom Willis unless they are naturally bigger in the first place .
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Absolutely, hes definately one that got away but thats one. Can we not produce more than one big unit in the back row, and not have to switch an athletic lock to 6?

Ill maybe add Barbeary could have been used efficiently and he could have given us that hard carrying we needed...some have said Pearson might have been a better 8....but really theres not much else
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
I know people have very entrenched views on TW, but as far as I can see a lot of that is supposition. I so want to hear the whole story one day.
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I honestly don’t think there’s much more of a ‘whole story’ to hear. Bordeaux offered him more money, a better lifestyle, and a chance to be the premier ball carrier of (perhaps) the best club team on the planet. I don’t think there has to have been anything going on behind the scenes to understand why he’d make the decision to join them. The lure of international rugby simply isn’t enough for some players.

I went to Toulouse for a week in April and watched a game out there, and after the whole experience I honestly found myself puzzled as to why more players aren’t making the choice to head out there. I certainly wouldn’t choose being part of this England team over being part of that lifestyle.
 
Pieter Steph du Teague said:
I honestly don’t think there’s much more of a ‘whole story’ to hear. Bordeaux offered him more money, a better lifestyle, and a chance to be the premier ball carrier of (perhaps) the best club team on the planet. I don’t think there has to have been anything going on behind the scenes to understand why he’d make the decision to join them. The lure of international rugby simply isn’t enough for some players.

I went to Toulouse for a week in April and watched a game out there, and after the whole experience I honestly found myself puzzled as to why more players aren’t making the choice to head out there. I certainly wouldn’t choose being part of this England team over being part of that lifestyle.
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True. And that may very well be the case, but we don’t know any of that. My gut reaction is more that there will have been both strong pulls from France and pushes from England. But I don’t know that either and I want to!

Also, if he and UBB had built such a mutual love in, why did he come back home? Seemed to be the draw of England from what I recall.

We don’t know the exact sequencing or that he has continued to receive all his central contract money (suspect we’d have heard if he didn’t, but we don’t know for sure). Or why he went back - there’s talk that he demanded guaranteed selection but I suspect he asked where he stood which is perfectly reasonable. Did he not like what the coaches said or the way they went about things etc? Was being closer to his brother a disproportionate thing for him?

Largely academic, but I’m just disappointed that the Willis boys aren’t playing in tandem for England as right now they would have been automatic picks for me.
 
Pieter Steph du Teague said:
I honestly don’t think there’s much more of a ‘whole story’ to hear. Bordeaux offered him more money, a better lifestyle, and a chance to be the premier ball carrier of (perhaps) the best club team on the planet. I don’t think there has to have been anything going on behind the scenes to understand why he’d make the decision to join them. The lure of international rugby simply isn’t enough for some players.

I went to Toulouse for a week in April and watched a game out there, and after the whole experience I honestly found myself puzzled as to why more players aren’t making the choice to head out there. I certainly wouldn’t choose being part of this England team over being part of that lifestyle.
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I lived there for a year. If they did anything other than build planes I'd have gone back. Very few job opportunities for me though.

Always amazed at how few Irish players end up there to end their careers. (South of France in general that is - there's even better than Toulouse)
 
Leonormous Boozer said:
I lived there for a year. If they did anything other than build planes I'd have gone back. Very few job opportunities for me though.

Always amazed at how few Irish players end up there to end their careers. (South of France in general that is - there's even better than Toulouse)
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Open an Irish sports bar.
 

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