Springbok Front-Row Discussion

[dan-the-man]

If all front-rowers are available by the World Cup, who would you take with you? The norm is to take 4 props and 3 hookers, so I'm going to work from their in my analysis.

1. CJ van der Linde - One of the best props in the world, weather at loosehead or tighthead. Hasn't set the world alight this season, but whenever he was on there was a marked difference in the Stormers scrum, apart from one off-game against the Sharks (everyone has one bad game in a season. Cooper, Genia, Carter - they all have). We need someone that will keep our scrum steady.

2. Schalk Brits - No one criticises NH rugby more then I do, but come on! This guy is awesome! He is something rare: A front-rower that actually has more then an ounce of skill, and isn't just a sack of fat masquerading as a proffesional "athlete". Schalk Brits is quick, strong, excellent thrower at the line-outs, a solid scrummager and a good defender. He also doesn't go conceding a ton of penalties.

3. BJ Botha - One of the best tightheads in world rugby. So under-rated and is such a key aspect to any scrum he is part of.

16. Gary Botha - By far the most under-rated player in world rugby. Gary Botha is one of the most consistent performers I have ever seen in my life, almost never having a bad game. It only doesn't seem that way because he doesn't play half the time, as Frans Ludeke is always busy keeping the politicians happy by putting in Chilliboy Rallepelle. (Don't reply to this post though if you're going to go into that issue)

17. Coenie Oosthuizen - Do I even need to explain why? what a male!

Reserve Prop: Gurthro Steenkamp

Reserve Hooker: Adriaan Strauss

Notable exclusions:

First thing's first, I'm gonna start with the big bombshell: Bismarck du Plessis would not make my 30-man squad. I'll probably be arrested for involuntary manslaughter as most Sharks fans probably just had a heart attack. The thing is though, apart from his obvious excellence at the break downs and in defense, he's too much of a liability. For starters, his line-out throwing is ****-poor. He is the 3rd worse line-out thrower I've ever seen behind Saia Faingaa and Corey Flynn. When he has ball in hand, he just runs straight at the defence, which is going to get you nowhere against teams that play expansive rugby. He constantly loses the ball in contact and is a poor scrummager. And of course, even the most ardent du Plessis fans will agree, he is a walking penalty. He has to be one of the dirtiest players to ever walk on a rugby field. He concedes far too many penalties to be in a World Cup.

Tendai Mtawarira is a top candidate for most over-rated player. A once every five games decent performance in the scrums doesn't make up for his 10 times out of 10 retarded performances in every other aspect of the game.

John Smit - He doesn't even warrant more then a sentance in my opinion

Jannie du Plessis - Another potential winner for the most over-rated player ever award. Penalty machine, poor scrummager - what does everyone see in him?

No doubt everyone's gonna think I have something against the Sharks. I really don't. I have something against the Sharks front-row. It is constantly lauded by commentators as "this Springbok front-row", yet they get absolutely sodomized almost every game. Look what the Crusaders front-row did to them, do you want the ABs to do that to us at the WC?

Good front-rowers to watch:

Tiaan Liebenberg
Deon Fourie
Craig Burden
Eugene van Staden (Seriously, he's much better then Jannie)
WP Nel
And I kinda like Martin Bezuidenhout who played a few games for the Lions. He's a quick hooker and he's big and strong.
Petrus du Plessis (Saracens)

 

[nickdnz]

I'd probably go:

1.Steenkamp - In my opinion, easily the most tested and successful international prop in South Africa. Was the best scrummager in the 2010 Tri Nations. The only problem is how he recovers from injury.
2.du Plessis - Disagree totally with your call on du Plessis. He's a solid scrummager and a huge work rate with ball in hand and in the rucks. I'd wager he costs othere teams more penalites when it comes to pressure at the breakdown, than he gives away. The problem with Brits is that he's not really a hooker. He throws alright, and his running for a hooker is easily the best in the world, but his scrummaging (and anyone who has watched the Saracens play the last two seasons can tell you) is average. He won't get much running room in a RWC final, but against England, France, New Zealand, Argentina and Wales scrum, the Springboks would get badly hurt.
3.Botha - Agree that he's probably my choice tighthead, although I don't consider him in the top 5 in the world atm.

16. Gary Botha - Most hard done by hooker in the world. Better than Ralepelle (and I actually rate Ralepelle).
17. Mtawarira - The problem about his hype, is that it clearly isn't his own doing. I think he's probably been one of the most consistant props in South African rugby and deserves a spot.

R. Oosthuizen - Been a beast but no international experience. I wouldn't start him.
R. Smit - Jeez, I love how this guy is treated in South Africa. Clearly not as good as he was in 2007 but there is no need for the abuse he gets. If South Africans don't like him, it should be because he is a smarmy little whinger, not because of a dip in form. Think he probably gets a spot because of a big career (though there is no way he should be captain).

 

[dan-the-man]

I'd probably go:

1.Steenkamp - In my opinion, easily the most tested and successful international prop in South Africa. Was the best scrummager in the 2010 Tri Nations. The only problem is how he recovers from injury.
2.du Plessis - Disagree totally with your call on du Plessis. He's a solid scrummager and a huge work rate with ball in hand and in the rucks. I'd wager he costs othere teams more penalites when it comes to pressure at the breakdown, than he gives away. The problem with Brits is that he's not really a hooker. He throws alright, and his running for a hooker is easily the best in the world, but his scrummaging (and anyone who has watched the Saracens play the last two seasons can tell you) is average. He won't get much running room in a RWC final, but against England, France, New Zealand, Argentina and Wales scrum, the Springboks would get badly hurt.
3.Botha - Agree that he's probably my choice tighthead, although I don't consider him in the top 5 in the world atm.

16. Gary Botha - Most hard done by hooker in the world. Better than Ralepelle (and I actually rate Ralepelle).
17. Mtawarira - The problem about his hype, is that it clearly isn't his own doing. I think he's probably been one of the most consistant props in South African rugby and deserves a spot.

R. Oosthuizen - Been a beast but no international experience. I wouldn't start him.
R. Smith - Jeez, I love how this guy is treated in South Africa. Clearly not as good as he was in 2007 but there is no need for the abuse he gets. If South Africans don't like him, it should be because he is a smarmy little whinger, not because of a dip in form. Think he probably gets a spot because of a big career (though there is no way he should be captain).

haha wow you didn't rip me a new asshole about Bismarck was expecting this thread to be full of posts telling me I'm a retard. I don't want it to sound like I'm making myself out to be a rugby genius, but I know I'm right about Bismarck, and I just wish there was a way to prove it.

No van der Linde, Brits or Strauss in the squad? Come on bro

 

[dan-the-man]

And people must stop with this whole Brits isn't a real hooker thing.... I remember in 2008 when the Boks had their hooker crisis, he played like an absolute beaut when he got given his chance, and very unfairly hasn't been given any others

 

[dan-the-man]

Oh btw its not letting me edit my posts!!!! otherwise I wouldn't post one after another like this! Sorry admin guys, not my fault

 

[psychic duck]

R. Smith - Jeez, I love how this guy is treated in South Africa. Clearly not as good as he was in 2007 but there is no need for the abuse he gets. If South Africans don't like him, it should be because he is a smarmy little whinger, not because of a dip in form. Think he probably gets a spot because of a big career (though there is no way he should be captain).

the reason why he gets so much abuse is because he is still in the side after two years of rubbish, and is picked despite clearly not being the best hooker or prop, if like most players he was dropped then he wouldn't get it.

Simples

as for the front row I would just keep the one they have at the moment minus Smit, part of a pack which bullied England in November

 

[dan-the-man]

the reason why he gets so much abuse is because he is still in the side after two years of rubbish, and is picked despite clearly not being the best hooker or prop, if like most players he was dropped then he wouldn't get it.

Simples

as for the front row I would just keep the one they have at the moment minus Smit, part of a pack which bullied England in November

Not to mention that even his leadership is as **** poor as his performances

 

[Darwin]

If all front-rowers are available by the World Cup, who would you take with you? The norm is to take 4 props and 3 hookers, so I'm going to work from their in my analysis.

1. CJ van der Linde - One of the best props in the world, weather at loosehead or tighthead. Hasn't set the world alight this season, but whenever he was on there was a marked difference in the Stormers scrum, apart from one off-game against the Sharks (everyone has one bad game in a season. Cooper, Genia, Carter - they all have). We need someone that will keep our scrum steady.

2. Schalk Brits - No one criticises NH rugby more then I do, but come on! This guy is awesome! He is something rare: A front-rower that actually has more then an ounce of skill, and isn't just a sack of fat masquerading as a proffesional "athlete". Schalk Brits is quick, strong, excellent thrower at the line-outs, a solid scrummager and a good defender. He also doesn't go conceding a ton of penalties.

3. BJ Botha - One of the best tightheads in world rugby. So under-rated and is such a key aspect to any scrum he is part of.

16. Gary Botha - By far the most under-rated player in world rugby. Gary Botha is one of the most consistent performers I have ever seen in my life, almost never having a bad game. It only doesn't seem that way because he doesn't play half the time, as Frans Ludeke is always busy keeping the politicians happy by putting in Chilliboy Rallepelle. (Don't reply to this post though if you're going to go into that issue)

17. Coenie Oosthuizen - Do I even need to explain why? what a male!

Reserve Prop: Gurthro Steenkamp

Reserve Hooker: Adriaan Strauss

Notable exclusions:

First thing's first, I'm gonna start with the big bombshell: Bismarck du Plessis would not make my 30-man squad. I'll probably be arrested for involuntary manslaughter as most Sharks fans probably just had a heart attack. The thing is though, apart from his obvious excellence at the break downs and in defense, he's too much of a liability. For starters, his line-out throwing is ****-poor. He is the 3rd worse line-out thrower I've ever seen behind Saia Faingaa and Corey Flynn. When he has ball in hand, he just runs straight at the defence, which is going to get you nowhere against teams that play expansive rugby. He constantly loses the ball in contact and is a poor scrummager. And of course, even the most ardent du Plessis fans will agree, he is a walking penalty. He has to be one of the dirtiest players to ever walk on a rugby field. He concedes far too many penalties to be in a World Cup.

Tendai Mtawarira is a top candidate for most over-rated player. A once every five games decent performance in the scrums doesn't make up for his 10 times out of 10 retarded performances in every other aspect of the game.

John Smit - He doesn't even warrant more then a sentance in my opinion

Jannie du Plessis - Another potential winner for the most over-rated player ever award. Penalty machine, poor scrummager - what does everyone see in him?

No doubt everyone's gonna think I have something against the Sharks. I really don't. I have something against the Sharks front-row. It is constantly lauded by commentators as "this Springbok front-row", yet they get absolutely sodomized almost every game. Look what the Crusaders front-row did to them, do you want the ABs to do that to us at the WC?

Good front-rowers to watch:

Tiaan Liebenberg
Deon Fourie
Craig Burden
Eugene van Staden (Seriously, he's much better then Jannie)
WP Nel
And I kinda like Martin Bezuidenhout who played a few games for the Lions. He's a quick hooker and he's big and strong.
Petrus du Plessis (Saracens)

Hookers: It's obvious that you don't rate du Plessis, but he is by far and away the best hooker in South Africa in my opinion. His lineout throwing is not "****-poor" - indeed there is nothing wrong with du Plessis's lineout throwing; he would easily be as good as Brits, and certainly far superior to Dean Fourie (who you have listed as a good front-rower to watch). He is a very good scrummager; many regard him as the top scrummaging hooker in South Africa! He is easily the most powerful hooker in South African rugby (if not world rugby) with the ball in hand; he frequently gets the Sharks/Springboks past the advantage line. As you have mentioned he is good at the breakdown, and is also a punishing defender. He gives away too many penalties, which is a valid criticism of him - I could almost understand if you said you didn't rate him because he gives away a lot of penalties, but to suggest it is also because he is a poor ball-runner/scrummager/lineout thrower defies belief!

As Nickdnz has pointed out, Scalk Brits is a poor scrummager, and doesn't relly do the work in the tight required of an international hooker in my opinion. He spends much of his time in the backline waiting to have a run with the ball, rather than actually doing the hard work at the breakdown to retain the ball for his team. It is clear that you like these sort of hookers (as you list Fourie and Burden as good front-rowers to watch), but I would much prefer to have a hooker that does his core duties rather than one that spends his time standing out in the backline.

My bench hooker would definitely be Adrian Strauss - he does the basics right, and is also a very powerful ball runner. I rate Ralepelle, Liebenberg, and Botha reasonably highly too. Depsite that, I would pick John Smit as my third hooker; he has a huge amount of experience which would be invaluable for the squad. He is also able to cover both prop positions (admittedly not that well!), but that sort of versatility would be useful in the squad (especially as the likes of BJ Botha, Steenkamp, and Mtawarira who I would pick in my squad only cover one position).

Props: I think Steenkamp deserves to be starting in the 1 jersey, as he was probably the standout loose-head prop in the tri-nations last year. He solid in the scrum, and has a huge work-rate around the park. Like you I'd probably go for BJ Botha at tighthead too. The bench prop is interesting as they probably need to be able to cover both sides. One of the advantages of having Smit in the 22 is that he is capable of covering both loosehead and tighthead as well as hooker (admittedly not at a very high level though), hence this sort of versatility would not be required. Because I'm not picking Smit I'd go for CJ van der Linde, though I don't actually rate him that highly. My forth prop would probably be Mtawarira, as I think he's a good player, and I don't particularily rate J du Plessis.

You suggest a number of players shouldn't be picked as they are weak scrummagers, and suggest Bismark du Plessis's habit of giving away penalties may cost the Springboks, yet you suggest they should pick Coenie Oosthuizen - this confuses me greatly! Stats (http://www.foxsports.com.au/) suggest that Bismark du Plessis has given away 16 penalties this season. Oosthuizen has given away 36! This is not a misprint... Oosthuizen has given away 36 penalties this year - over twice as many as Bismark du Plessis, and 16 more than the next prop (Wyatt Crockett with 20). Most of these penalties has come from scrum. While I have no doubt that the Oosthuizen is a promising young player, and I think his work around the park is phenomenal, he has a lot of work to do before he should be considered for international rugby.

So in conclusion, the front rowers I would pick:1. Steenkamp, 2. du Plessis, 3. BJ Botha; 16. Strauss, 17. van der Linde; 23. Smit, 24. Mtawarira

 

[dan-the-man]

Hookers: It's obvious that you don't rate du Plessis, but he is by far and away the best hooker in South Africa in my opinion. His lineout throwing is not "****-poor" - indeed there is nothing wrong with du Plessis's lineout throwing; he would easily be as good as Brits, and certainly far superior to Dean Fourie (who you have listed as a good front-rower to watch). He is a very good scrummager; many regard him as the top scrummaging hooker in South Africa! He is easily the most powerful hooker in South African rugby (if not world rugby) with the ball in hand; he frequently gets the Sharks/Springboks past the advantage line. As you have mentioned he is good at the breakdown, and is also a punishing defender. He gives away too many penalties, which is a valid criticism of him - I could almost understand if you said you didn't rate him because he gives away a lot of penalties, but to suggest it is also because he is a poor ball-runner/scrummager/lineout thrower defies belief!

As Nickdnz has pointed out, Scalk Brits is a poor scrummager, and doesn't relly do the work in the tight required of an international hooker in my opinion. He spends much of his time in the backline waiting to have a run with the ball, rather than actually doing the hard work at the breakdown to retain the ball for his team. It is clear that you like these sort of hookers (as you list Fourie and Burden as good front-rowers to watch), but I would much prefer to have a hooker that does his core duties rather than one that spends his time standing out in the backline.

My bench hooker would definitely be Adrian Strauss - he does the basics right, and is also a very powerful ball runner. I rate Ralepelle, Liebenberg, and Botha reasonably highly too. Depsite that, I would pick John Smit as my third hooker; he has a huge amount of experience which would be invaluable for the squad. He is also able to cover both prop positions (admittedly not that well!), but that sort of versatility would be useful in the squad (especially as the likes of BJ Botha, Steenkamp, and Mtawarira who I would pick in my squad only cover one position).

Props: I think Steenkamp deserves to be starting in the 1 jersey, as he was probably the standout loose-head prop in the tri-nations last year. He solid in the scrum, and has a huge work-rate around the park. Like you I'd probably go for BJ Botha at tighthead too. The bench prop is interesting as they probably need to be able to cover both sides. One of the advantages of having Smit in the 22 is that he is capable of covering both loosehead and tighthead as well as hooker (admittedly not at a very high level though), hence this sort of versatility would not be required. Because I'm not picking Smit I'd go for CJ van der Linde, though I don't actually rate him that highly. My forth prop would probably be Mtawarira, as I think he's a good player, and I don't particularily rate J du Plessis.

You suggest a number of players shouldn't be picked as they are weak scrummagers, and suggest Bismark du Plessis's habit of giving away penalties may cost the Springboks, yet you suggest they should pick Coenie Oosthuizen - this confuses me greatly! Stats (http://www.foxsports.com.au/) suggest that Bismark du Plessis has given away 16 penalties this season. Oosthuizen has given away 36! This is not a misprint... Oosthuizen has given away 36 penalties this year - over twice as many as Bismark du Plessis, and 16 more than the next prop (Wyatt Crockett with 20). Most of these penalties has come from scrum. While I have no doubt that the Oosthuizen is a promising young player, and I think his work around the park is phenomenal, he has a lot of work to do before he should be considered for international rugby.

So in conclusion, the front rowers I would pick:1. Steenkamp, 2. du Plessis, 3. BJ Botha; 16. Strauss, 17. van der Linde; 23. Smit, 24. Mtawarira

No no, it is IMPOSSIBLE to truly believe Bismarck is a good thrower. What I'm going to do one day is go to the Supersport archives of every Sharks game this season and make a compilation video.
He also constantly stands up in the scrum.

About the Oosthuizen penalty thing... touche

 

[roryjbd]

Botha didn't have a great season for Ulster. He was dogged by injury and only played in half the games. Good thing we shipped him off to Munster and upgraded him for a better model

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

I thought he moved to Leinster

 

[roryjbd]

I thought he moved to Leinster

Nope he signed for Munster and we brought in the younger and less injury prone Afoa.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

But Afoa didn't win a World Cup

 

[Rhyer]

But Afoa didn't win a World Cup

Against England?

 

[roryjbd]

But Afoa didn't win a World Cup

Neither did Botha really. He didn't even make the bench for the final - just played a few pool games.

 

[Seaton]

As with others, I think the line-up should be

1. Guthro Steenkamp
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Werner Kruger

16. John Smit
17. CJ van de Linde

Reserves: Gary Botha, BJ Botha
I must admit I haven't seen as much of BJ Botha as I would have liked to, but I reckon Kruger has had a decent season for the Bulls, at least a better one than the other SA tightheads.

As for Botha, I think dan-the-man jinxed him quite badly for the Sharks vs. Bulls game this weekend past, had a true nightmare of a game, got clapped by Bulls fans at the ground when he actually did something right!

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Botha got injured during the World Cup but was a part of the RWC winning team.

 

[big ginger 8]

BJ Botha is one of the best tighthead scrummagers in the world.