Summer tours - England

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I disagree, you may not have been able to judge much from the game but the already established players like Slade seemed to make more errors and performed worse than the newcomers.

But so what?
You know Slade can perform as well against the top too some extent at least.

 

[FLOBALOB]

It wouldn't surprise me to see Chiefs best FB starting there in the not too distant future. Assuming ,of course, that he can go more than 2 games without getting crocked.
He looked good in the SF when he played there.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Would've learned a lot more about these players.
I think for me future seems bright but most of those players looked a while off playing in the starting team and I wonder how much time you can invest in these younger players with the RWC now 2 years away.

Which neatly sums up the blind alley Jones has driven the team down. I say get the likes of Smith and Dombrandt and Steward involved now. Definitely in squads, preferably starting.

(a) They must just be the best options - if not immediately then definitely by France

(b) It will give the sinecures a massive kick up the jacksie

(c) If it doesn't work out then Jones can revert to his old favourites without too much difficulty

If you're thinking about France, and let's be honest that's all Jones will care about now, that feels like a win win.

 

[Reiser99]

For me the issue is that there are a few key players holding England back as was evidenced during the 6Ns. Now possibly the likes of Billy V, Farrell etc... could find some form and be the best in their position at the WC, but should be hope for that. Billy especially should not be picked until he shows some regular form for Sarries. That means we need to look for alternatives because if we get to 2023 and they still aren't firing then we're screwed. As @Old Hooker said, Jones has created a blind alley and if he doesn't turn back now then it will be too late come 2023 to fix.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

But so what?
You know Slade can perform as well against the top too some extent at least.

And we also know that he then couldn't perform against a side being completely thrashed and was making basic errors. Either the performance a player put in in these games counts for something or it doesn't, it works both ways. If these games count for absolutely nothing then how does anyone ever break into the side? Ok maybe USA and Canada aren't the best but the point is that at some point you have to take the chance. The players can only perform in the games they are selected for and if you say it's never right to select them at a higher level because they've not played at that level, you've created the catch 22 of never getting experience because they don't have experience.

So in these games what can you compare them to? You claimed Smith making errors is evidence he isn't ready and then now are turning around and saying an established player who we already know is capable making errors counts for nothing. There is no consistency in what you are saying. Either the error count in this game is proof or readiness or it isn't. If Smith making errors is reason to keep him out then Slade making more errors shows Slade isn't ready (by your own claim a ready player wouldn't do that). Pick whether it matters or not and then apply the standard consistently. If the standard for Smith getting into the team is having a flawless game against a hodge-podge side then nobody will ever get into the senior side. Smith made fewer errors that game than the established players in that game and the established players in the full on internationals. How much did Ford and Farrell **** up last 6N and other times? How many mistakes have the likes of Slade and Daly made at all levels?

 

[NickBD]

Who do we think will be selected I it if this group for the AI.

Forwards not many. Front row, for 1 jersey no changes, Heyes has a chance for back to Sink and Blamire 3rd choice hooker if EJ wants to take 3. No new locks.

Back row is probably gonna **** us all off Iv got this bad feeling Ludlow will be EJ next obsession, I totally see a back row of Ludlow, Underhill and Curry. Based on other squads EJ tends to take 5 with 1 specialist 8 (or sometimes none). I think so far we're looking at Curry, Underhill, Billy, Ludlow and maybe Earl. That 5th option was Earl but he wasn't picked for summer I assume he was rested.

The backs, Randal will be back up to Youngs, Marcus will probably complete with Ford. The centres will be Farrell, Lawrence, Manu and Slade. Wingers/full back sadly Daly, Steward, 1 of Radwan or Big Joe , May, Watson and Nowell (if not fit Malins goes).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Honesty how many mistakes has Slade made generally at international level?
I'm not his biggest fan, but generally he's imo been consistent for England.

Daly I agree on (although still think it's too soon for Steward) but still think that's a coaching issue same with Ford and Farrell. IMO England's problems isn't the players it's the coaching plan and I didn't see much of a plan v These teams.

We desperately need a backs coach again and despite being a Eddie fan boy it's my biggest worry.
My biggest worry with Smith is he gets shoehorned in too soon, without a functioning backs plan, we get caught in no mans land between attacking or kicking and Smith gets ripped to shreds and loses his confidence and we loss a hell of a talent too early.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Honesty how many mistakes has Slade made generally at international level?
I'm not his biggest fan, but generally he's imo been consistent for England.

Daly I agree on (although still think it's too soon for Steward) but still think that's a coaching issue same with Ford and Farrell. IMO England's problems isn't the players it's the coaching plan and I didn't see much of a plan v These teams.

We desperately need a backs coach again and despite being a Eddie fan boy it's my biggest worry.
My biggest worry with Smith is he gets shoehorned in too soon, without a functioning backs plan, we get caught in no mans land between attacking or kicking and Smith gets ripped to shreds and loses his confidence and we loss a hell of a talent too early.

Come and join me on the dark side in the I hate Eddie club.

I am your farther Akker.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

My biggest worry with Smith is he gets shoehorned in too soon, without a functioning backs plan, we get caught in no mans land between attacking or kicking and Smith gets ripped to shreds and loses his confidence and we loss a hell of a talent too early.

Ford made his debut days after his 21st birthday, Farrell even younger.

Smith's nearly 22 and a half (when do you stop counting halves…..) and I'd guess he's got more club games under his belt than either of those 2 had on debut. It's going to take any newcomer a little while to come to terms with the international game, but I've got few worries on that score with Smith. I'm more concerned that Jones will select him and then not pick players to complement him or instruct him to play an alien game plan.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Alex Lozowski is the player I'm most interested in going forward next season.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Alex Lozowski is the player I'm most interested in going forward next season.

Going to be interesting to see where Saracens put him - I'm guessing 10 when Farrell's not there, 12 when he is?
and where does that leave Vunipola?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Going to be interesting to see where Saracens put him - I'm guessing 10 when Farrell's not there, 12 when he is?
and where does that leave Vunipola?

Also interesting in that Loz has mainly been playing 10 or 13.
I guess is Manu is really rated Loz would stay at 12?

From a England POV hoping
10. Farrell
12. Loz
13. Daly

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Last 2 posts have been very confusing with references to Manu and Vunipola…..really had to think about that!

 

[Which Tyler]

Last 2 posts have been very confusing with references to Manu and Vunipola…..really had to think about that!

Also, a declaration of psychological warfare to play somone with that name at FH

 

[will311293]

I like Loz a lot and strong player in defence.

Would be mad to think Eddie might play Daly in the position he is best known for at 13.... I mean his play their for Wasps was literally the reason he got picked all those years ago. He's looked good on tour so far at 13 too.

 

[Jakedood]

I like Loz a lot and strong player in defence.

Would be mad to think Eddie might play Daly in the position he is best known for at 13.... I mean his play their for Wasps was literally the reason he got picked all those years ago. He's looked good on tour so far at 13 too.

Really good. A handling error last game didn't look great, but that can happen to anyone. His decision making has been exceptional, as well as tackle breaking ability. Plus defensively, its easier to be in the line vs one on one in the backfield for sure

 

[BPM]

Going to be interesting to see where Saracens put him - I'm guessing 10 when Farrell's not there, 12 when he is?
and where does that leave Vunipola?

Nick Tompkins is back at Saracens too.

Obviously that's of no direct benefit to England, but it might have an impact on where Lozowski and Daly line-up for them.