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Summer tours - England

Old Hooker

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The 6N debrief is in, EJ to stay



With the exception of the missing coaches, they're all pretty lame excuses (/"made your own bed" type ones, in the case of playing players who've had no game time)

I don't think our pack upping their squat 1RM would've seen us take home the trophy
Reading all that I think we did flipping well to finish 5th.

A tucked away comment on playing squad cohesion. Blamed on COVID, and that can't have been easy, but wonder if there's a bit more to that.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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I don't really see how comments about players not having gametime is a valid excuse given Jones knew that was an issue but chose them anyway, likewise with the overplayed players. It was well within his control to mitigate those factors and he went out of his way to go "I know best" and stick his finger up when his continued selection of Sarries was questioned given their poor performances for a while.

Players lacking gametime is half the problem, Jones picking players knowing they lacked gametime is the other half.
 

Old Hooker

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From what I’ve seen in the press the review seems to have been given a pretty lukewarm reception. Below is a graphic accompanying the Times article effectively giving average stats per game. If anywhere near accurate it’s pretty damning.

The review seemingly concentrates on the 6N in isolation. But the 6N results were partly a culmination of decreasing performance levels (if not necessarily results) post RWC and you’d hope they looked at the bigger picture.
 

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Jakedood

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The 6N debrief is in, EJ to stay



With the exception of the missing coaches, they're all pretty lame excuses (/"made your own bed" type ones, in the case of playing players who've had no game time)

I don't think our pack upping their squat 1RM would've seen us take home the trophy
Does sound lame, but also I think its more to do with strength in your base to effect the breakdown, stay on your feet longer, etc... the game time one, and no off season does make a slight difference, its tough to keep having the drive to fight every inch week in week out over a long period of time. Other than that I'd say some are weak, I'm surprised they actually published that tbh
 

BPM

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It does look pretty damning, but with a small sample size of 5 games, a couple of poor performances (Scotland and Ireland spring to mind) and no outstandingly good one, the data will be massively skewed.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Does sound lame, but also I think its more to do with strength in your base to effect the breakdown, stay on your feet longer, etc...
This would have merit if the players were playing like donkeys in the prem (which has the harshest breakdown refereeing, imo) but they're not
I think the vast majority of our woes the past two international series can be attributed to poor structures and gameplanning

There's a marked difference between these players performance for club and country.
It's like a reverse Wales where all their players are crap at club level then go up a level come Six Nations time
 

Old Hooker

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I think the vast majority of our woes the past two international series can be attributed to poor structures and gameplanning

+ on field leadership + selection (not blooding in the Autumn and sticking with with the old underperforming / rusty guard in the 6N)

There's a marked difference between these players performance for club and country.
It's like a reverse Wales where all their players are crap at club level then go up a level come Six Nations time

Its more complex, but surely the one thing above all others that defines a good international coach is that he gets players to step up when donning the national shirt.

In amongst all the noise of the review let's not forget that the head coach and many of the players reached a RWC final less than 18 months before. This isn't a wet behind the ears bunch of teenagers, but one of our most experienced teams ever and even if there were some factors against us, we still underperformed.
 

will311293

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If we play 10s i reckon we would do pretty well....

Barbeary, Willis, Willis, Young, Robson, Umaga, Odogwu, Fekitoa, Kilbrige, Sirker -
Subs: Oghre, Will Wilson, Shields, Vellacott (Hougaard if next year), Mills, Bassett, Minozzi, Watson (Crossdale maybe if next year)

Starting 10 plus 8 subs?
 

Ragey Erasmus

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This would have merit if the players were playing like donkeys in the prem (which has the harshest breakdown refereeing, imo) but they're not
I think the vast majority of our woes the past two international series can be attributed to poor structures and gameplanning

There's a marked difference between these players performance for club and country.
It's like a reverse Wales where all their players are crap at club level then go up a level come Six Nations time
It's also in contrast to other years where England were poor. Post WC in 2000 up to about early-mid 2010's English rugby was distinctly average and our club game was also pretty average. Now England have a fair few very capable club players who are woefully underperforming at international level. How many players actually play better for England than they do for their club? I think that right there is the big issue. A great coach gets the most out of players, a poor coach doesn't. Jones used to get the most out of his players but recently they have looked clueless and uncreative whereas for their clubs they can play some great stuff. For England it's robotic, there is little passion.

Even though Jones has survived, he must be on very thin ice. Considering all those 5's were only 2nd worst because we have Italy, the signals failings across the board and not merely being unlucky. There isn't a single area of weakness, it's weakness in every single aspect of the game across the entire team. That simply must fall squarely on Jones' shoulders. If he can't be held accountable for across the board performances of the entire team that he chose and knows then he can't be held accountable for anything.

More interesting would be to see the average stats for England for each year, I think a definite trend would appear showing this was not a one-off but part of systemic failings under Jones punctuated by the odd success. It feels like the team now wins despite him, not because of him.
 

Jakedood

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This would have merit if the players were playing like donkeys in the prem (which has the harshest breakdown refereeing, imo) but they're not
I think the vast majority of our woes the past two international series can be attributed to poor structures and gameplanning

There's a marked difference between these players performance for club and country.
It's like a reverse Wales where all their players are crap at club level then go up a level come Six Nations time
Apparently he's got independent reviewers after each tournament... maybe not as much faith as you'd think from what the RFU said
There were lots of contributing factors for sure, as well as poor performances. Theyre giving him a chance to turn things around, but I imagine goodwill wont last forever
 

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How’s Lawrence been playing post 6N? Does the experience seem to have done him any good?
 

TRF_Olyy

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He'll probably be on the Lions so it's not really relevant for the Summer Tour, but Tom Curry captained Sale on the weekend so that's another tick in the leadership column
Sanderson rates his leadership highly too:

How’s Lawrence been playing post 6N? Does the experience seem to have done him any good?
Thought he was very good vs us on the weekend - I've always liked his play style, but he seems to have added an extra bit of bite to his play.
Whenever he takes contact he really fights for every extra mm he can get
 

Akker Van Der Tigs

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Rules out Evans for any summer games.
Such a shame.

2nd time he has had a massive injury after an impressive run of games and getting attention.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Such a shame, he really was in ridiculous form - similar to Jack Willis in that regard, topping every chart there is and then getting a season ending injury soon after
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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Real sad for him - he has been the heart and soul of that quins team and with a smile on his face as well.

Hope he comes back better
 

BPM

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Agreed. While a fractured tibia is obviously not good news, I’m actually quite relieved. When I saw it happen I thought it was going to be an ACL or similar. Depending on how complex the fracture is, it’s hopefully a few months rather than a year.

It’s a huge loss that will really hurt our run-in and massive shame for WEv. With the Lions tour and the injuries to Jack Willis and Ben Curry, this was probably his best chance of getting England recognition. IMO, he’s definitely good enough, he just has loads of excellent competition.

Bones generally mend easier than ligaments so let’s hope he has a swift, straightforward recovery and is back for the start of next season.
 

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Is Ribbands likely to be involved? He seems to be consistently excellent.
 

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