The greatest of the pro era?

[Charles]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Sep 29 2009, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

15. Cullen
14. Caucaunibuca
13. O'Driscoll
12. Horan
11. Lomu
10. Carter
9. Gregan
8. Dallaglio
7. McCaw
6. Hill
5. Matfield
4. Johnson
3. Hayman
2. Ibanez
1. du Randt

Randwick you're an idiot. Given that Hill/Back/ Dallaglio performed as a back row up until 2003, and Collins and McCaw had their heydays AFTER then, I hardly think head-to-head is relevant. What's more, Hill and Dallaglio were key members of a team that was better than ANYONE who was playing against them at the time. So the NZ back row containing Collins and McCaw WAS inferior at that time.[/b]

Calm down gingergenius were all here to share our views on rugby. You obviously like Hill and Back I like them too but I see them inferior to Collins and McCaw and vice versa, nothing wrong with our opinions cos they're honest. Nothing to get angry about its a mere opinion lol.

Yes I do remember now, Hill and Back worked hard in those two 2003 tests along with Wilkinson to put together Englands 2 wins against us 15-13 and 31-28 were the scores. For a northren hemisphere side to beat us back to back is out of the norm (there may be a few others but cant think of one at the moment) and so that was an achievement.

Hill and Back are good but I like Collins and McCaw (honestly these guys WIN A LOT).
In 2003 Hill and Back won 2 games against the All Blacks and brought Englands telly of victories against us to 6. Yes 6, ever since England invented rugby they've managed to beat us 6 times after all these years. FACT.


[/b][/quote]

France

Who also beat you 12 times. Twice as much as the English.
B)

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Calm down gingergenius were all here to share our views on rugby. You obviously like Hill and Back I like them too but I see them inferior to Collins and McCaw and vice versa, nothing wrong with our opinions cos they're honest. Nothing to get angry about its a mere opinion lol.

Yes I do remember now, Hill and Back worked hard in those two 2003 tests along with Wilkinson to put together Englands 2 wins against us 15-13 and 31-28 were the scores. For a northren hemisphere side to beat us back to back is out of the norm (there may be a few others but cant think of one at the moment) and so that was an achievement.

Hill and Back are good but I like Collins and McCaw (honestly these guys WIN A LOT).
In 2003 Hill and Back won 2 games against the All Blacks and brought Englands telly of victories against us to 6. Yes 6, ever since England invented rugby they've managed to beat us 6 times after all these years. FACT.[/b]

The reason I called you an idiot, and imho you remain an idiot, is because you are confusing "Greatest PLAYERS of the pro era" with "Most successful COUNTRY of all time".

If I see someone disagreeing with me by putting forward an argument that is, frankly, stupid, I am within my rights to call them an idiot. If you want me to treat your points with respect, make them more relevant.

By your way of thinking, Hill and Dallaglio could have been superhuman but still not as good as Collins, simply because they failed to equalise England's win:loss with NZ that has been developed OVER THE COURSE OF HISTORY.

As it happens, Collins was member of the All Black team in 2003 that was inferior to England. He then went on to play for the All Blacks as they spent 2/3 years as the best team in the world. He also stood out as a key player in that team. Which makes him undoubtedly a legend and a world class performer. However, Richard Hill was something else; a player that did all the dirty work of what was arguably the greatest forward pack ever put together, in a team that was among the world's best for 2/3 years; a player whose injury in the 2nd Test of the 2001 Lions tour has been seen as the turning point. Similarly Dallaglio captained Wasps to countless domestic and European trophies; captained England; won a World Cup, 6N Grand Slam; his aged presence in the 2007 squad was key to England reaching another RWC final; and his all round skill, determination and physicality was awesome when he was in his prime.

A measure of a great player is not 'how many times they can beat the All Blacks'. Rupeni Caucaunibuca is a player who has reached Usain Bolt standards of freakishness, and scored freakish tries on the International and S12 stage. You going to say he's not worthy of a place because Fiji can't beat the ABs?

 

[Randwick Kingfisher]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Sep 30 2009, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Sep 30 2009, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes 6, ever since England invented rugby they've managed to beat us 6 times after all these years. FACT.[/b]

What's that got to do with the price of sliced bread?
[/b][/quote]


Neil and Black put together 2 wins against us and win the world cup and now they are the GREATEST of the pro era???.. Its your opinion and thats allgood but theres not much of a legacy for them here in NZ, they wernt around for long in the international scene and if they were around ages ago why wasnt England doing well ages agoo. McCaws still playing international, yous will see him and the ABs soon.
[/b][/quote]

Yeah but if it is his opinion at least repect it. Not one of your posts have you accepted their opinion and then put forward your own and then react badly when they disagree.
[/b][/quote]


Hey, read gingergenius's post he started all this. I was the first one to mention 'its your opinion' and thats all good by me. I put forward my opinions with facts to support it thats not reacting badly.

You want to see whos got no respect, no accepting of opinions and bad reactions read gingergenius's post.
Go on read and then tell me whos what and please dont sugar coat your reply just straight obvious truth.

 

[shazbooger]

McCaw > Back
Hill > Collins

This isnt about combinations or previous records.

Oh ......... and whomever suggested Van De Vestwatsit! ............. damn right. Cant believe I forgot him. He should definately be in there ahead of Gregan et al. Feckin class Scrumhalf.

 

[Jer1cho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

In 2003 Hill and Back won 2 games against the All Blacks and brought Englands telly of victories against us to 6. Yes 6, ever since England invented rugby they've managed to beat us 6 times after all these years. FACT.[/b]

That's a slightly stupid point. We have beaten New Zealand 33 times, yet there is only one South African in that XV. It doesn't have much to do with what is being said. After New Zealand, we are the most successful team in the history of the sport, yet there are more Argentine's in that squad than South Africans.

It's all purely opinion, and there will always be arguments. Heck, you could make 2 'best teams of the pro era' and nobody could tell you which team would win. Fact is, it's impossible to have a 'perfect team' when there are more 'perfect players' than spots in a single team. They should have actually made 2 teams to be fair if you ask me...

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 02:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Sep 30 2009, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Sep 30 2009, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes 6, ever since England invented rugby they've managed to beat us 6 times after all these years. FACT.[/b]

What's that got to do with the price of sliced bread?
[/b][/quote]


Neil and Black put together 2 wins against us and win the world cup and now they are the GREATEST of the pro era???.. Its your opinion and thats allgood but theres not much of a legacy for them here in NZ, they wernt around for long in the international scene and if they were around ages ago why wasnt England doing well ages agoo. McCaws still playing international, yous will see him and the ABs soon.
[/b][/quote]

Yeah but if it is his opinion at least repect it. Not one of your posts have you accepted their opinion and then put forward your own and then react badly when they disagree.
[/b][/quote]


Hey, read gingergenius's post he started all this. I was the first one to mention 'its your opinion' and thats all good by me. I put forward my opinions with facts to support it thats not reacting badly.

You want to see whos got no respect, no accepting of opinions and bad reactions read gingergenius's post.
Go on read and then tell me whos what and please dont sugar coat your reply just straight obvious truth.
[/b][/quote]

It would help if your "facts" made sense and din't show an obvious blikered bias towards the Kiwi's. I agree with Gingergenius, Hill and Back are far better than Collins and McCaw. The England back-row of the early noughies were genuinley feared whereas I'm unsure as to weather the Collins McCaw and whoever played 8 were feared as much.

 

[Randwick Kingfisher]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Sep 30 2009, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Calm down gingergenius were all here to share our views on rugby. You obviously like Hill and Back I like them too but I see them inferior to Collins and McCaw and vice versa, nothing wrong with our opinions cos they're honest. Nothing to get angry about its a mere opinion lol.

Yes I do remember now, Hill and Back worked hard in those two 2003 tests along with Wilkinson to put together Englands 2 wins against us 15-13 and 31-28 were the scores. For a northren hemisphere side to beat us back to back is out of the norm (there may be a few others but cant think of one at the moment) and so that was an achievement.

Hill and Back are good but I like Collins and McCaw (honestly these guys WIN A LOT).
In 2003 Hill and Back won 2 games against the All Blacks and brought Englands telly of victories against us to 6. Yes 6, ever since England invented rugby they've managed to beat us 6 times after all these years. FACT.[/b]

The reason I called you an idiot, and imho you remain an idiot, is because you are confusing "Greatest PLAYERS of the pro era" with "Most successful COUNTRY of all time".

If I see someone disagreeing with me by putting forward an argument that is, frankly, stupid, I am within my rights to call them an idiot. If you want me to treat your points with respect, make them more relevant.

By your way of thinking, Hill and Dallaglio could have been superhuman but still not as good as Collins, simply because they failed to equalise England's win:loss with NZ that has been developed OVER THE COURSE OF HISTORY.

As it happens, Collins was member of the All Black team in 2003 that was inferior to England. He then went on to play for the All Blacks as they spent 2/3 years as the best team in the world. He also stood out as a key player in that team. Which makes him undoubtedly a legend and a world class performer. However, Richard Hill was something else; a player that did all the dirty work of what was arguably the greatest forward pack ever put together, in a team that was among the world's best for 2/3 years; a player whose injury in the 2nd Test of the 2001 Lions tour has been seen as the turning point. Similarly Dallaglio captained Wasps to countless domestic and European trophies; captained England; won a World Cup, 6N Grand Slam; his aged presence in the 2007 squad was key to England reaching another RWC final; and his all round skill, determination and physicality was awesome when he was in his prime.

A measure of a great player is not 'how many times they can beat the All Blacks'. Rupeni Caucaunibuca is a player who has reached Usain Bolt standards of freakishness, and scored freakish tries on the International and S12 stage. You going to say he's not worthy of a place because Fiji can't beat the ABs?
[/b][/quote]



Look gingergenius (I cant believe I have to resort to this) but when I played Richard Hill yes he is a hard worker and plays like he wants to lead in everything to do with forwards and when I played Jerry Collins it was more shock in the contact he did same as Hill but tackling and being tackled by Jerry is more memorably sore. Great strentgh just bloody great believe me.

 

[Jer1cho]

Well, as far as England's 2003 forward pack being the greatest ever... well, it's debatable. But, i do agree. That England team of 2003 were, in my opinion, the best and most complete team to ever play the game. The closest rivals would be the All Black team of 1995.

If we manage to keep this team (which is unlikely due to de Villiers and Steyn buggering off,) I think we would be contenders for the greatest team in rugby history... But I'm South African, so don't take much note of me... I never say anything useful anyway.

 

[Jer1cho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Look gingergenius (I cant believe I have to resort to this) but when I played Richard Hill yes he is a hard worker and plays like he wants to lead in everything to do with forwards and when I played Jerry Collins it was more shock in the contact he did same as Hill but tackling and being tackled by Jerry is more memorably sore. Great strentgh just bloody great believe me.[/b]

Am i missing something here?

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Sep 30 2009, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look gingergenius (I cant believe I have to resort to this) but when I played Richard Hill yes he is a hard worker and plays like he wants to lead in everything to do with forwards and when I played Jerry Collins it was more shock in the contact he did same as Hill but tackling and being tackled by Jerry is more memorably sore. Great strentgh just bloody great believe me.[/b]

Am i missing something here?
[/b][/quote]

When? Where? For who?

Need to prove that or it's gonna be the bulls**t statement of the year.

 

[Randwick Kingfisher]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Sep 30 2009, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 02:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Sep 30 2009, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Sep 30 2009, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes 6, ever since England invented rugby they've managed to beat us 6 times after all these years. FACT.[/b]

What's that got to do with the price of sliced bread?
[/b][/quote]


Neil and Black put together 2 wins against us and win the world cup and now they are the GREATEST of the pro era???.. Its your opinion and thats allgood but theres not much of a legacy for them here in NZ, they wernt around for long in the international scene and if they were around ages ago why wasnt England doing well ages agoo. McCaws still playing international, yous will see him and the ABs soon.
[/b][/quote]

Yeah but if it is his opinion at least repect it. Not one of your posts have you accepted their opinion and then put forward your own and then react badly when they disagree.
[/b][/quote]


Hey, read gingergenius's post he started all this. I was the first one to mention 'its your opinion' and thats all good by me. I put forward my opinions with facts to support it thats not reacting badly.

You want to see whos got no respect, no accepting of opinions and bad reactions read gingergenius's post.
Go on read and then tell me whos what and please dont sugar coat your reply just straight obvious truth.
[/b][/quote]

It would help if your "facts" made sense and din't show an obvious blikered bias towards the Kiwi's. I agree with Gingergenius, Hill and Back are far better than Collins and McCaw. The England back-row of the early noughies were genuinley feared whereas I'm unsure as to weather the Collins McCaw and whoever played 8 were feared as much.
[/b][/quote]


I asked you not to sugar coat things.
You said I was this and that and now that you see that its ginger you change your subject to agreeing with ginger.
Geez anything to disagree with me....lol

I miss the weather in England...lol.

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Sep 30 2009, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 02:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Sep 30 2009, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Sep 30 2009, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes 6, ever since England invented rugby they've managed to beat us 6 times after all these years. FACT.[/b]

What's that got to do with the price of sliced bread?
[/b][/quote]


Neil and Black put together 2 wins against us and win the world cup and now they are the GREATEST of the pro era???.. Its your opinion and thats allgood but theres not much of a legacy for them here in NZ, they wernt around for long in the international scene and if they were around ages ago why wasnt England doing well ages agoo. McCaws still playing international, yous will see him and the ABs soon.
[/b][/quote]

Yeah but if it is his opinion at least repect it. Not one of your posts have you accepted their opinion and then put forward your own and then react badly when they disagree.
[/b][/quote]


Hey, read gingergenius's post he started all this. I was the first one to mention 'its your opinion' and thats all good by me. I put forward my opinions with facts to support it thats not reacting badly.

You want to see whos got no respect, no accepting of opinions and bad reactions read gingergenius's post.
Go on read and then tell me whos what and please dont sugar coat your reply just straight obvious truth.
[/b][/quote]

It would help if your "facts" made sense and din't show an obvious blikered bias towards the Kiwi's. I agree with Gingergenius, Hill and Back are far better than Collins and McCaw. The England back-row of the early noughies were genuinley feared whereas I'm unsure as to weather the Collins McCaw and whoever played 8 were feared as much.
[/b][/quote]


I asked you not to sugar coat things.
You said I was this and that and now that you see that its ginger you change your subject to agreeing with ginger.
Geez anything to disagree with me....lol

I miss the weather in England...lol.
[/b][/quote]

I didnt change subject at all. I said what I feel about you postings and made my own judgement. And anyway, whats the weather got to do with anything.

 

[Bullitt]

Wait.... What?

 

[Randwick Kingfisher]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Sep 30 2009, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Sep 30 2009, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look gingergenius (I cant believe I have to resort to this) but when I played Richard Hill yes he is a hard worker and plays like he wants to lead in everything to do with forwards and when I played Jerry Collins it was more shock in the contact he did same as Hill but tackling and being tackled by Jerry is more memorably sore. Great strentgh just bloody great believe me.[/b]

Am i missing something here?
[/b][/quote]

When? Where? For who?

Need to prove that or it's gonna be the bulls**t statement of the year.
[/b][/quote]


Lol...I'm retired from proving myself lol...think what yous want just keep supporting rugby its good stuff.
Hill's not bad...Bristol is though....lol

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Sep 30 2009, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Sep 30 2009, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Randwick Kingfisher @ Sep 30 2009, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look gingergenius (I cant believe I have to resort to this) but when I played Richard Hill yes he is a hard worker and plays like he wants to lead in everything to do with forwards and when I played Jerry Collins it was more shock in the contact he did same as Hill but tackling and being tackled by Jerry is more memorably sore. Great strentgh just bloody great believe me.[/b]

Am i missing something here?
[/b][/quote]

When? Where? For who?

Need to prove that or it's gonna be the bulls**t statement of the year.
[/b][/quote]


Lol...I'm retired from proving myself lol...think what yous want just keep supporting rugby its good stuff.
Hill's not bad...Bristol is though....lol
[/b][/quote]

Convienent. Why feel the need to slander Bristol?

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Sep 30 2009, 02:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Why feel the need to slander Bristol?[/b]

Surely is not Slander if its true. Bristol is a dreadful hole in the ground isnt it?

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Sep 30 2009, 02:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Sep 30 2009, 02:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why feel the need to slander Bristol?[/b]

Surely is not Slander if its true. Bristol is a dreadful hole in the ground isnt it?


[/b][/quote]

Not all of it :lol:

And don't call me Shirley

 

[Bullitt]

Is anyone else still confused by "when I played Richard Hill"?

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Sep 30 2009, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Is anyone else still confused by "when I played Richard Hill"?[/b]

Bet Richard Hill is.

 

[Fushitsusha]

I'm seeing some double standards going on here...

Firstly, Richard Hill >>> Jerry Collins...

Back was an excellent player who was part of an amazing English backrow... but he's not as good as Richie McCaw or George Smith...