The "Religion" thread

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Oct 19 2009, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Organized Religion got us where we are today? Load of ******** man.

I find the idea of creationism being taught in the classroom silly too, even in a country where the Catholic church runs something like 90% of the schools that doesn't happen, and Darwin's theory have been taught since the 60's.[/b]

I have no problem with Darwin's ideas, as I've stated. And yes, Organized religion picked up the place of the Roman Empire and held together civilization. It indeed did get us where we are today. I'm not saying it was Christ's principals that got us here, I'm saying the wars, the conquests, the preservation of literature (mainly Irish monks) etc got us exactly where we are today. Without the Church the Western world would have crumbled more than it did after the fall of Rome.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Oct 19 2009, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Fair enough. You'd be wise not to assume we form our knowledge on the matter from what those people say, though.[/b]

I don't assume everyone does, but some of the statements already made show a very miniscule understanding of regligion. It's easy to critisize what you don't understand. If you're not well versed in the Bible it's easy to say, "your religion says this..." Even the bible itself says " for a lack of knowledge the people perish."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Oct 19 2009, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 19 2009, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, but I'm not talking about the interpretation of the Bible. I'm talking about general knowledge. I used those as examples of what I'm not talking about. Let's take the 10 commandments, there is not much up for interpretation there. Most people can get a pretty general sense of what God and Moses were trying to get across.[/b]

So because some Christians couldnt be arsed reading the bible they are getting it all wrong. Does that mean the Creationists and those of the thoery of "The Stork" are alright because they take the bible literally? You have a problem with people who dont believe the Noahs arc story?
[/b][/quote]
People who take the Bible literally tend to not believe that babies are delivered by storks. And yes, people who can't be arsed to read, usually get things wrong.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Oct 19 2009, 11:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

People overlook the fact that Creationism and Evolution can co-exist.[/b]

That's all I'm getting at. I'm reading a book right now called "Finding Darwin's God." I'm not saying I agree with this principle, but the fact remains the two can co-exist and do for a lot of people, including highly rated scientist. This book was recommended to me by a friend involved in research.


All I'm getting at is that some of the criticism hurled at religion, and Christianity in general, is misinformed.
People get angry at being told what is right and what is wrong, especially from a set of principles and stories that go back thousands of years. Mankind has been on a quest since the beginning to have a spritual connection with whatever created us. So, fair enough, you can find a lot of similar stories and explanations for things. It doesn't mean that there isn't some truth in them.
As far as the Flood story goes (Noah's Ark) it's a universal story found in every ancient civilization. So, it is my belief that it happened. Whether you take the Bible literally or not is up to you.

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Oct 19 2009, 06:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Believing in a God gives many people a purpose to their lives, something I personally don't require to be happy[/b]

I can relate to this 100%. Not gonna go into specifics but my gut feeling tells me the same.

 

[gingergenius]

The religion debate is like the chicken and egg debate. Endless.

There is no proof of any supernatural beings whatsoever. At the same time, there is no proof that there aren't any.

Personally I choose to believe what has so far been proven, but many others have 'faith' which qualifies mere beliefs. Personal belief is the key to it all. I dislike religion, but I have no problem with people having a deepheld personal faith.

The problem I have is with organised religion. The fact that the vast majority of religious people (and maybe atheists too) share the same beliefs as the families they come from. To me that doesn't suggest it's something they've made an informed judgement on; it is more of a lazy, cultural commitment. Equally, I hate the idea that schools or even nations can specify a particular religion as fundamental to its values.

The state and society as a whole should be utterly secular - not anti-religion, but it should be treated as an irrelevance. What people do in their own time is up to them.

 

[durbutter]

"He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!!!"

 

[dullonien]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 19 2009, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

The religion debate is like the chicken and egg debate. Endless.[/b]

The egg. Well if you believe in evolution anyway.........

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noidsay @ Oct 19 2009, 09:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

"He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!!!"[/b]

:lol: :lol:

Damn it, I can't believe I forgot to post that myself.

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 19 2009, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

There is no proof of any supernatural beings whatsoever. At the same time, there is no proof that there aren't any.[/b]

So by that logic you subscribe to the validity of the celestial teapot, the big flying spagetti monster and the invisible pink unicorn? All of which, by using the same logic are equally viable as deities (and in the case of the last two, a hell of a lot more fun).

I also dont agree with the moderate view that religion is harmless, and this wonderful source of moral guidance. I dont agree that it is taboo to laugh at people with those beliefs. If someone told me on here the Fourie DuPreez was a better player than Brian O'Driscoll I would laugh at him for his idiot beliefs ( ), the same should apply to believers in big flying spagetti monsters, virgin mothers, and people who believe the world is only 10,000 years old.

While I have no problem with people who keep it to themselves (and away from their own kids), I think its appropriate to be worried by the recent developments in the US and the middle east and Africa. Religion is not keeping itself to itself. The political lobbying in the US is growing is in danger of causing real harm, while the growing menace of fundamentalism (on both sides) is also well past alarming.

You cant just sit there and say ahhh they are okay when they mind their own business. They DONT stay there and mind their own business.

Oh and I refuse to respond to Roth until he gets his head around the contradictions in his own (actually unstated) position

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Oct 20 2009, 12:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 19 2009, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no proof of any supernatural beings whatsoever. At the same time, there is no proof that there aren't any.[/b]

So by that logic you subscribe to the validity of the celestial teapot, the big flying spagetti monster and the invisible pink unicorn? All of which, by using the same logic are equally viable as deities (and in the case of the last two, a hell of a lot more fun).

I also dont agree with the moderate view that religion is harmless, and this wonderful source of moral guidance. I dont agree that it is taboo to laugh at people with those beliefs. If someone told me on here the Fourie DuPreez was a better player than Brian O'Driscoll I would laugh at him for his idiot beliefs ( ), the same should apply to believers in big flying spagetti monsters, virgin mothers, and people who believe the world is only 10,000 years old.

While I have no problem with people who keep it to themselves (and away from their own kids), I think its appropriate to be worried by the recent developments in the US and the middle east and Africa. Religion is not keeping itself to itself. The political lobbying in the US is growing is in danger of causing real harm, while the growing menace of fundamentalism (on both sides) is also well past alarming.

You cant just sit there and say ahhh they are okay when they mind their own business. They DONT stay there and mind their own business.

Oh and I refuse to respond to Roth until he gets his head around the contradictions in his own (actually unstated) position
[/b][/quote]

Considering we're coming from the same standpoint, there's not much point in deconstructing each other's arguments, especially since what you seem to have a particular problem with is organised religion (which I too said was what particularly ****** me off).

However, it is unrealistic to suggest that people won't hold personal beliefs. A lot of people DO mind their own business... religion may be an important part of their life, but they don't impose it on anyone else. And as long as they do this, I'm fine with it. It may irritate me in the same way people who vote Conservative irritate me, but it's their individual choice and it's not my job to lord it over them and tell them I know better.

As I said, ideally EVERYTHING would be separated from religion until faith is merely something you practice in your own time. But people will always be attracted to religious beliefs, simply because all religions provide an answer to 1) where we came from, and 2) where we'll go when we die. It takes a lot of thought and bravery to say "I have no soul, I'll simply rot away." Many people don't have that.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Oct 20 2009, 06:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Oh and I refuse to respond to Roth until he gets his head around the contradictions in his own (actually unstated) position [/b]

Please point out my contradictions.
My position?
1. There is a God/Creator
2. Mankind was created for a reason
3. We, obviously, have free will
More technically, I'm a Christian and I wholeheartedly believe that there are absolute truths. I think all world religions have some very strong similarities which means "In The Beginning" there was a shared heritage and that the story has, in some cultures/religions deviated from the truth. Because we have no way to prove these things we have to have faith, which requires going on a spiritual journey coupled with a pursuit of knowledge.
While a lot of you don't give a rat's arse about religion, and in fact some of you blame it for everything, I can and will defend the tennants of my faith which unfortunately have been misconstrued by horrible applications over the last 2,000 years and yes, TBN.

 

[dullonien]

It's quite easy to blaim religion for everything. Most wars etc. are fought over religion. However it's just in human nature to fight, wheather that's over religion, over land, or more recently over oil etc. For that reason it's impossible and unfair to say that the world would be a better place without religion. There are just some horrible people in this world who use religion as an excuse for the actions they take.

I think gingergenius has very similar views to mine. As long as people don't push religion on me, I won't push my athiest views on them. I used to have a nice old woman come to the door in a previous flat, she didn't preach about Christian views, she just had a good old chat about very genral things. She didn't hold it against me that I wasn't religious, but instead chose carefully what to talk to me about. Although, I would have prefered if she didn't call (was always in the middle of eating lol), I was happy to have a 10-15min chat with her.

I was brought up in a loose religious family. I went to sunday school and sometimes went to chapel etc. I decided for myself that I didn't believe, and to be perfectly honest I think my parents have lost any belief they once had aswell.

O'Rothlain's beliefs are HIS beliefs. If that's what he believes in, he'd be stupid not to teach them to his children. That would otherwise go against everything he believes in. So I don't agree with ginger and Logorrhea in that sense. It's impossible to keep religion and life seperate, as to a huge amount of people, religion is one of the most important aspects of life. Wheather or not I understand, makes no difference. It doesn't change the way I view O'Rothlain, or any other religious person. There's space for every religion or non religion on this earth, the sooner everyone realises that, the quicker this world can become a peacfull place to live for all.

 

[O'Rothlain]

Exactly, if I say I believe in what I believe in, then why would I not tell my children. I say I believe in Christ and in the need for salvation and the unfortunate downside of eternal damnation if one doesn't set his life right with God in accordance to the scriptures. Why would I want my children not knowing what I know if I sincerely believe in that reality. Moreover, why would I not want anyone I know to know these things? I'd have to be a complete horses ass not to tell people that are in my life. This is why your old neighbor visited you, dullonein. I'm not going to beat people into acceptance, I'm not the freakin' inquisition, but the sincerety of my beliefs compells me to tell other people. This is why religious people don't keep their views to themselves. We want everyone to take the opportunity to reconcile their life.
I know that you may not agree with my belief structure, but hopefully you can at least see that religious people that tell you about their faith and encourage you to explore it, are at least more caring people than those who keep their mouths shut. Silent Ommision is sometimes the worst thing in this world.

 

[dullonien]

I indeed have no problem with people informing me of their beliefs. But it must be done in a friendly and plesant manner (something that doesn't always happen). I'm also not atall keen on people stopping me in the street (this doesn't just apply to religion, but more towards charity workers), or knocking on my door to preach to me.

I'm sure you feel exactly the same way O'Rothlain, and wouldn't like an athiest knocking on your door or stopping you in the street just to tell you that you're beliefs are a load of tosh, and believing in nothing is the correct way to live. Treat others as you wish to be treated, that's one of the only 'rules' necessary to live an honest, good life.

 

[MunsterMan]

It's the Golden rule, present in all religions pretty much Dull.

If you believe you are going to live forever in paradise much much greater than anything we have here on earth you'd probably want to tell people about it in fairness.

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 20 2009, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Please point out my contradictions.[/b]

Absolute truths based on revealed learning and blind faith? If your going that far why not believe in fairies, trolls, elves, King Arthur, and Wales being a real country.
Darwinism and Creationism?
Creationism is based on the dismissal of absolute truths isnt it?
Christianity saved Europe post Roman empire, when many people believe it was Christianity that killed the Empire

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Oct 20 2009, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Most wars etc. are fought over religion. However it's just in human nature to fight, wheather that's over religion, over land, or more recently over oil etc. For that reason it's impossible and unfair to say that the world would be a better place without religion.[/b]

Why dont you hear of Athiest suicide bombers?

Its bullshit, the entire middle eastern conflict is based on the Jews "divine" rites as set out in Exodus. An event that archaeologists have pretty much proven never took place in the first place. Bosnia, Iraq (ongoing), Afghanistan (ongoing), Northern Ireland, Pakistan, Somalia, The Sudan, the Holocaust ................. f*** it, the Crusades, the Inquisition, Jihads through the ages. Remove religion and these people have little to fight over. The world would still have some form of violence, but a hell of a lot less. I'd take that thank you very much.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Oct 20 2009, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

There's space for every religion or non religion on this earth[/b]

Not according to ambrahamic religions. Christianity preaches that all non believers are going to hell. Islam states that non believers must convert or die (and then I'm presuming there is some form of eternal damnation) and of course anyone leaving the religion can be killed. This is the word of god according to the Bible or Koran. More recent speculation is expecting the "rapture" to occur in the not so distant future, in which all believers will be swept away by angels (or sumpin) and the rest of us are pretty much f***ed (though not literally of course, he'll leave that up to his chosen ones I presume and it'll only be the kids).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 20 2009, 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Exactly, if I say I believe in what I believe in, then why would I not tell my children. I say I believe in Christ and in the need for salvation and the unfortunate downside of eternal damnation if one doesn't set his life right with God in accordance to the scriptures.[/b]

This is the beauty of the trap. Tell a 3 or 4 year old what to believe. If for some reason they show sense and doubt what your saying, hit them with the eternal damnation line (even though "The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." ....... me arse) Tell them that it was all written down in this book by God, but dont tell them the majority of the book was written anywhere from 50-250 years after the events, by a politically motivated roman emperor, and if they question any of the gizzillion contradictions just tell em to shut up, have faith and have some ice-cream (though they should thank god first).

Dawkins put it pretty much perfectly when he called it the worst kind of child abuse.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Oct 20 2009, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

If you believe you are going to live forever in paradise much much greater than anything we have here on earth you'd probably want to tell people about it in fairness.[/b]

Love that kind of stuff. Its brilliant.

 

[Jer1cho]

I just think that religion was created to nullify the fear of death. It's used as a reason to live. Someone dies, and everybody says that "we will see you soon" and "He is with God now" etc etc. It just strikes me as a certain closure people need. If that makes their lives better, then that's ok.

I don't know what God is, but i know what he is not. He is not what we say he is, because every perception of God, was created by man. Every religion sees God the way they would like him to be. Certain religion's cause people to do good unto others, as their beliefs tell them to. Others kill in the name of God, as their laws and beliefs are different.

What i can say, is that most people are scared of 2 things. One, is the end. Death. Nothingness. The other, as an eternity of endless suffering, screaming and burning. I have a lot of mates who preach to me with a beer in one hand, a cigarette in the other, and then afterwards go home with some skank and bang her.

Another thing i have noticed is at church. Every single session i have ever been to, seems to have one message stated over and over again. Basically, that Jesus died for every sin you will ever commit. We are all sinners, but He gave his life, etc etc. It's as if everyone gets their sigh of relief every week, as they are continually reminded that their sins have been cleansed by Jesus, and all they need to do is believe and ask for forgiveness. It gives people closure, and that's probably exactly what these people need to hear.

I just think that if there is a God, he has long left this world, and we are on our own. But that's just me.

 

[feicarsinn]

I'll throw in three words to this debate:

Opiate of the masses.



That is all.

 

[Sir Speedy]

You math at fail.

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (feicarsinn @ Oct 21 2009, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I'll throw in three words to this debate:

Opiate of the masses.



That is all.[/b]

Ummmm

 

[feicarsinn]

Heh. I iz funi.





Hem, intentional of course

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Oct 21 2009, 07:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Absolute truths based on revealed learning and blind faith? If your going that far why not believe in fairies, trolls, elves, King Arthur, and Wales being a real country.
Darwinism and Creationism?
Creationism is based on the dismissal of absolute truths isnt it?
Christianity saved Europe post Roman empire, when many people believe it was Christianity that killed the Empire [/b]

The Roman Empire failed when they split it up amongst more than one ruler. Let's not forget that the Byzantine Empire, which was Christian, flourished when the Western End fell because of rivalries and invasion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Oct 21 2009, 07:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

This is the beauty of the trap. Tell a 3 or 4 year old what to believe. If for some reason they show sense and doubt what your saying, hit them with the eternal damnation line (even though "The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." ....... me arse) Tell them that it was all written down in this book by God, but dont tell them the majority of the book was written anywhere from 50-250 years after the events, by a politically motivated roman emperor, and if they question any of the gizzillion contradictions just tell em to shut up, have faith and have some ice-cream (though they should thank god first).Dawkins put it pretty much perfectly when he called it the worst kind of child abuse.[/b]

What Politically motivated Roman emperor are you making reference to? Constantine? The council of Nicea? You're very flawed in your information. These books were written within the lifetimes of the respected authors. That is historical fact, not just a Christian Myth. Even secular atheist/agnostic professors, when referencing the Bible as a source, will confirm this.
Regardless of that, Some people do choose christianity because they are scared of the afterlife. Some choose it because they want a relationship with their creator and see hell as eternity seperated from the creator. That's all up for biblical interpretation. I also cannot help what people tell their kids exactly, but I do know that if I love and/or care for someone, I'm going to tell them about the message of Christ, about God, about Creation. So, obviously my children will fall into that category. It's definitely not abuse to tell a child that they are loved, that God loves them and that he is love.