The "Religion" thread

[O'Rothlain]

So, what's really on trial here? Faith versus the Scientific Method?
You'll never find empirical evidence of God. So, that's a win for the anti-religion posse.
What I can say is that the historical evidence of the Abrahamic Faiths is hard to dispute. It's hard to dispute the worldwide spread of Christianity and it's massive influence. It's hard to dispute Islam and their call to holiness, which for better or worse is dominating parts of the globe. It's hard to dispute the influence and love/hate relationship the world has with Israel and the people of the Jewish Faith.
All I can say is there is something to Jehovah/Allah. Something about this one particular faith which claims in One absolute God has dominated this world since written histories were made and still does to this day.
I could argue scripture and point out how your claims of double standards are wrong, but to have that sort of conversation you'd actually have to be well versed in my religion. Sure you can, as some websites have, pull some abstract verses out of the context of all of sacred scripture and make our faith look evil, and make it say really whatever you want (there are hundreds of pastors that do it within the faith, so why shouldn't people outside of the faith not have a go at manipulating the written word?). The point is I'm not, nor is any other religious person on this forum, going to show the light (I'm using that in a sarcastic tone, boys, don't get all fueled up with your anti-religious ferver) to people who despise religion and faith.
Some of you may have made peace with the idea that there is no God. I have not, nor will, because it doesn't add up. I think this universe screams "Intellegent Design." That is a point I'd actually like to see refuted, because I don't think it's ever been successfully done.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 23 2009, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 24 2009, 03:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, with the religion question. Jacovw, you claim that there is a Christian God, who is still active in the world today. I would like to see some hard evidence to support this....

... Bringing 'trust' or 'faith' into a discussion is the same as bringing in hearsay or made-up facts. If you want to stubbornly go on believeing, go ahead. But do it as an individual, and on shaky intellectual grounds.[/b]

But you're begging the question - faith is based on belief, not evidence, so demanding evidence is beside the point. Your argument is not logical, captain.

[/b][/quote]

My argument is logical... if faith is based on belief then it is utterly futile. The difference is, without the human brain there would be no such thing as faith. Science, on the other hand, is constantly happening around us, and would happen whether or not mankind existed.

As for non-creationist Christians, I just cannot understand how you think someone could create the entire Universe, and then sit around for billions of years before telling a small part of one species in a single region of one planet about what they'd created!!!

And O'Ro, you can't claim that Abrahamic faiths have a lot going for them just because they're popular (which Judaism isn't, really). The most widely-read newspapers in Britain are the tabloids which distribute a lot of bullshit that people believe because people are gullible. Does this make them bastions of the truth?

And refute an assumption like 'the universe screams intelligent design'? Easy. The universe screams that there are many secrets and things that the ever-curious Human wants to know. Since the Human has an inflated sense of his own importance and places himself at the top of the hierarchy of the Universe, he assumes that something he cannot get his head round is created by something otherworldly. He thinks, 'surely nothing in my own Universe can confuse me this much'. This subconscious arrogance turns into the ignorance that is religion. An easy option for Humans to use to explain a failure of their own curiosity.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 24 2009, 04:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 23 2009, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 24 2009, 03:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, with the religion question. Jacovw, you claim that there is a Christian God, who is still active in the world today. I would like to see some hard evidence to support this....

... Bringing 'trust' or 'faith' into a discussion is the same as bringing in hearsay or made-up facts. If you want to stubbornly go on believeing, go ahead. But do it as an individual, and on shaky intellectual grounds.[/b]

But you're begging the question - faith is based on belief, not evidence, so demanding evidence is beside the point. Your argument is not logical, captain.

[/b][/quote]

My argument is logical... if faith is based on belief then it is utterly futile. The difference is, without the human brain there would be no such thing as faith. Science, on the other hand, is constantly happening around us, and would happen whether or not mankind existed.[/b][/quote]
But that's not your argument - you said faith is meaningless because it's not backed up by evidence, and I said that's illogical because faith forgoes the need for evidence.

Querying whether faith is based on belief is like doubting that rain is made from water.

And science isn't happening around us all the time. We make science through our reason. Chemical reactions may go on all the time, but if we didn't have reason to observe those reactions they wouldn't really matter, would they? I suppose the cockroaches might complain, but who cares about them? Christians believe that reason is a gift from god to give us a chink of light on the truth.

 

[aligmacd123]

A lot of this topic is based on misconception.

Some churches do have some "wacky" ideals and I as a Christian believe that some of that stuff is utter ********.

I believe stuff in the Bible. Any other Christian doctrine should be examined for biblical truth and if i has no evidence it shouldn't be taught.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 23 2009, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

As for non-creationist Christians, I just cannot understand how you think someone could create the entire Universe, and then sit around for billions of years before telling a small part of one species in a single region of one planet about what they'd created!!!

And O'Ro, you can't claim that Abrahamic faiths have a lot going for them just because they're popular (which Judaism isn't, really). The most widely-read newspapers in Britain are the tabloids which distribute a lot of bullshit that people believe because people are gullible. Does this make them bastions of the truth?

And refute an assumption like 'the universe screams intelligent design'? Easy. The universe screams that there are many secrets and things that the ever-curious Human wants to know. Since the Human has an inflated sense of his own importance and places himself at the top of the hierarchy of the Universe, he assumes that something he cannot get his head round is created by something otherworldly. He thinks, 'surely nothing in my own Universe can confuse me this much'. This subconscious arrogance turns into the ignorance that is religion. An easy option for Humans to use to explain a failure of their own curiosity.[/b]

There is a difference between tabloid journalism and religion. You can say something about popularity and widespread growth. It is either complete hype, or there is something behind it. I think the last 2,000 years would have shown whether or not it was just hype, but yet it hasn't as these faiths continue to grow. Just because they light has dimmed in a post-modern, post-christian world, doesn't mean that in other parts of the globe it's not going stronger than ever. Also, it may not take the same shape it did in the past in America, but driving around my new city of Dallas, I can assure you there are so many centers of worship for these three faiths it staggers me sometimes.

I think it is your subconcious that doesn't like to deal with being told how to live that discredits anything to do with spirituality. Negate the basis of faith and you simply don't have to believe. That argument works against you as much as it does for you.

 

[O'Rothlain]

In my quest to add some material to this debate here are two web-articles to read. One in each camp. One pro-creation/religion, one article on humanism/atheism. I think we could possibly add a new dimension to our conversation (which is what I hope we are having and not just a big **** off).
http://www.newsweek.com/id/219009
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/dragon.html

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 23 2009, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

faith is based on belief, not evidence, so demanding evidence is beside the point. Your argument is not logical, captain.[/b]

The request for evidence is perfectly logical. Its the concept of faith that isnt. Arguing around it is just a pedantic exercise in manipulating the english language.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 23 2009, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Big Bang theory doesn't dispose of god. It still leaves the matter of the uncaused cause, which is usually referred to as god.[/b]

Hawkins had some pretty mad stuff on this. I think he believed that there was no beginning and no end but I didnt understand after about 2 sentences. Either way, the Big bang thoery doesnt dispose of God as you said, but it does dispose of the Abrahamic Gods.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 23 2009, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Christians believe that reason is a gift from god to give us a chink of light on the truth.[/b]

Not on the truth, but on the revealed truth as set out in the bible. They already know the truth, they just have to prove it. Science on the other hand acknowledges the lack of knowledge and is trying to discover it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 23 2009, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

So, what's really on trial here? Faith versus the Scientific Method?[/b]

Its the old Faith vs Reason debate isnt it. Well thats what it turned into pretty quickly. Personally I prefer to look at religions role in society, but it always biols down to this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 23 2009, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

What I can say is that the historical evidence of the Abrahamic Faiths is hard to dispute.[/b]

Quite a bit of that history has already been disproven, or the attempts to prove it have failed. This is one of the things in this debate that really peeves me. There are so many voices now contradicting eachother that its hard to soft through the nonsense. I find a link saying that the Exodus never happened, you just find one that confirms it did. I find one showing a human head that is in or around 200,000 years old and you get one that shows a dinasaur one that is 2 weeks old. For areas that are still up for debate thats all well and good, but for others that have been proven beyond doubt, it becomes annoying. I'm not accusing YOU of doing it, but the Christian right are doing it far too often.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 23 2009, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

It's hard to dispute the worldwide spread of Christianity and it's massive influence. It's hard to dispute Islam and their call to holiness, which for better or worse is dominating parts of the globe. It's hard to dispute the influence and love/hate relationship the world has with Israel and the people of the Jewish Faith.[/b]

True. Thats the crux of it for me. So much power, vested in so many unreasonable people. Its dangerous.

I spose the one benefit is that the faster it spreads the faster Athiesm spreads along with it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 23 2009, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think this universe screams "Intellegent Design." That is a point I'd actually like to see refuted, because I don't think it's ever been successfully done.[/b]

Intelligent design as set out in the Bible has, unless you are expecting us to ignore some fundamental rules of physics like the speed of light.

 

[jacovw]

"Its the old Faith vs Reason debate isnt it. Well thats what it turned into pretty quickly. Personally I prefer to look at religions role in society, but it always biols down to this."

We as Christians so often do this, we get ourselves not sucked into (cause it's all of our own doing) but stuck into an argument that could run around the same mountain a million times, and get nowhere... As you started the thread, I want to agree and say let's look at Religion's Role in the world. And truth be told the idea of religion that jumps into mind when we hear the word, should never have had, and do not have a role in today's society. People going to mass meetings and praying certain set prayers and paying big money or looking at sacred objects all to fix themselves for a life after this one is selfish and irresponsible in a world where people are dying of hunger and disease. The bible says "show me your faith without deeds... i'll show you mine by my deeds!" "Faith without action is empty!" "we must be the hands and feet of God." "True Religion is taking care of Widows and Orphans!" "Feed the hungry, clothe the naked..." all these are quick paraphrases but still true to the essence of what the New Testament church were told to do! A Church that practices this true religion can not be told it has no place in society... I've been part of such a church and sadly part of another. There were good people in the latter one, rich and influential people, and they did great and wonderful things for each other, but never ever saw the inside of a informal settlement or squatter camp! The bible says that if we are good to those who love us what good is that, anyone can and will do that, be good to those who hate you or cannot give anything back! And that's what the other church did, i do not know a single person (from that church) who has not been involved in a feeding scheme, or christmas party, or building/housing project for the underprivilaged, aged, or orphans... many of these even went to other countries to do the same!

Now if anyone tells me that kind of Church/religion has no place in society, they are probably a doer of good to those who can pay them back!

 

[jacovw]

Oh and there are a million to one ratio of factual-cracktual info on either scientific camp so let's not use just any internet resource... (only a suggestion if we are continuing the faith/reason debate) use the laws of physics and state how they apply... if we can't do that our argument is as solid as a sponge! But maybe we can get back to the original idea of this thread...

 

[Steve-o]

I wanna how more interesting this thread would be if we had a muslim and hindu as well. Everybody would have "facts & evidence" to back-up their religion. I'd love to see Jaco and O'Roth telling the muslim he can wipe with his right hand. That's what's making this thread very one dimensional. The Atheism vs Religion debate is fruitless, as both camps are coming from completely different places (evidence & common sense vs faith & belief). But Religion vs Religion, ah now that's when the big guns come out!

 

[aligmacd123]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Oct 25 2009, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

evidence & common sense vs faith & belief[/b]

What evidence do you have?

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alexmac @ Oct 25 2009, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Oct 25 2009, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

evidence & common sense vs faith & belief[/b]

What evidence do you have?
[/b][/quote]

The way you reacted to that statement again shows the fundamental difference how the 2 parties view things. Atheists (terrible word BTW sounds like a condition) are not out to disprove with evidence, but rather shoulder off religion due to a lack of evidence. I cannot disprove the Lochness monster, Big Foot or Leprechauns with evidence but rather use common sense and a lack of evidence to shoulder it off and not believe it.

That's how I can't believe in: (1) A virgin birth (2) Miracles (why have no amputees been healed?) (3) A human being coming back from the dead after 3 days to later rise up on a cloud to heaven.

 

[dullonien]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 25 2009, 04:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

"Its the old Faith vs Reason debate isnt it. Well thats what it turned into pretty quickly. Personally I prefer to look at religions role in society, but it always biols down to this."

We as Christians so often do this, we get ourselves not sucked into (cause it's all of our own doing) but stuck into an argument that could run around the same mountain a million times, and get nowhere... As you started the thread, I want to agree and say let's look at Religion's Role in the world. And truth be told the idea of religion that jumps into mind when we hear the word, should never have had, and do not have a role in today's society. People going to mass meetings and praying certain set prayers and paying big money or looking at sacred objects all to fix themselves for a life after this one is selfish and irresponsible in a world where people are dying of hunger and disease. The bible says "show me your faith without deeds... i'll show you mine by my deeds!" "Faith without action is empty!" "we must be the hands and feet of God." "True Religion is taking care of Widows and Orphans!" "Feed the hungry, clothe the naked..." all these are quick paraphrases but still true to the essence of what the New Testament church were told to do! A Church that practices this true religion can not be told it has no place in society... I've been part of such a church and sadly part of another. There were good people in the latter one, rich and influential people, and they did great and wonderful things for each other, but never ever saw the inside of a informal settlement or squatter camp! The bible says that if we are good to those who love us what good is that, anyone can and will do that, be good to those who hate you or cannot give anything back! And that's what the other church did, i do not know a single person (from that church) who has not been involved in a feeding scheme, or christmas party, or building/housing project for the underprivilaged, aged, or orphans... many of these even went to other countries to do the same!

Now if anyone tells me that kind of Church/religion has no place in society, they are probably a doer of good to those who can pay them back![/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Oct 25 2009, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

The way you reacted to that statement again shows the fundamental difference how the 2 parties view things. Atheists (terrible word BTW sounds like a condition) are not out to disprove with evidence, but rather shoulder off religion due to a lack of evidence. I cannot disprove the Lochness monster, Big Foot or Leprechauns with evidence but rather use common sense and a lack of evidence to shoulder it off and not believe it.[/b]

Two excellent posts right there imo.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Oct 25 2009, 03:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I'd love to see Jaco and O'Roth telling the muslim he can wipe with his right hand. That's what's making this thread very one dimensional. But Religion vs Religion, ah now that's when the big guns come out![/b]

Not one comment I've made has been about how right my brand of faith is, just backing up faith(s) in general. I think if I encounter a muslim we both understand that we have very absolute ideals. I wouldn't dare tell a muslim he can wipe with his right hand. Just like I'm not going to offer a Jew a lovely bit of roasted pork (well, either of those guys really). This thread isn't about me saying my religion is right, I'm just here to defend religion and I will use my personal experience and knowledge to back it up which is dominated by christian thought.

 

[jacovw]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Oct 25 2009, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alexmac @ Oct 25 2009, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Oct 25 2009, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

evidence & common sense vs faith & belief[/b]

What evidence do you have?
[/b][/quote]

The way you reacted to that statement again shows the fundamental difference how the 2 parties view things. Atheists (terrible word BTW sounds like a condition) are not out to disprove with evidence, but rather shoulder off religion due to a lack of evidence. I cannot disprove the Lochness monster, Big Foot or Leprechauns with evidence but rather use common sense and a lack of evidence to shoulder it off and not believe it.

That's how I can't believe in: (1) A virgin birth (2) Miracles (why have no amputees been healed?) (3) A human being coming back from the dead after 3 days to later rise up on a cloud to heaven.
[/b][/quote]

You see that's all great to say but i would bet two of my three chest hairs that you would not except eyewitness accounts like a court does, if three people saw it happening a court would call that credible!

If five Bible college students saw an amputees arm grow back that would not be credible now would it?
If another four Students saw a woman with a crippled foot have it grow at prayer, would that be credible...
If 300 people saw Jesus simultaneously and got their testimony recorded would that be?
If a girl got smashed by a speeding car throwing her two meters up into the air blood coming from every opening (eyes ears mouth) in her face and someone runs to pray for her and she does not spend more than one night in hospital and has no permanent damage... well i think you get the picture.

Just like we say no news is good news, so it's also true that no good news makes good news!

(and only the Jesus one is far removed from me)

 

[Charles]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alexmac @ Oct 25 2009, 10:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Oct 25 2009, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

evidence & common sense vs faith & belief[/b]

What evidence do you have?
[/b][/quote]

If you are tslking about evidence of Science, well all the modern things around you like the computer you've written this comment on are pretty much an evidence of scientifical procedures, of tests being conducted, of processus being tweaked and tested again until the outcome is 99% predictable. It wasn't achieved through prayers, believe me.

As for the history of the Universe, well let's say that if you tell me that Unicorns exist and I tell you they don't, I am not the one having to prove anything...

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Oct 25 2009, 08:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alexmac @ Oct 25 2009, 10:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Oct 25 2009, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

evidence & common sense vs faith & belief[/b]

What evidence do you have?
[/b][/quote]

If you are tslking about evidence of Science, well all the modern things around you like the computer you've written this comment on are pretty much an evidence of scientifical procedures, of tests being conducted, of processus being tweaked and tested again until the outcome is 99% predictable. It wasn't achieved through prayers, believe me.

As for the history of the Universe, well let's say that if you tell me that Unicorns exist and I tell you they don't, I am not the one having to prove anything...
[/b][/quote]
I don't think a single religious person on here is questioning science. Just as proof is demanded of us for a God who created the universe, alexmac was asking for evidence of the atheistic start of the universe.
It goes back to the beginning of all this. We both have theories about the start. We both have to have faith to believe in it. One of the groups relies on philosophical thought, the other on emperical research. The only problem is neither of us can prove a thing.

 

[Charles]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 25 2009, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Oct 25 2009, 08:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alexmac @ Oct 25 2009, 10:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Oct 25 2009, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

evidence & common sense vs faith & belief[/b]

What evidence do you have?
[/b][/quote]

If you are tslking about evidence of Science, well all the modern things around you like the computer you've written this comment on are pretty much an evidence of scientifical procedures, of tests being conducted, of processus being tweaked and tested again until the outcome is 99% predictable. It wasn't achieved through prayers, believe me.

As for the history of the Universe, well let's say that if you tell me that Unicorns exist and I tell you they don't, I am not the one having to prove anything...
[/b][/quote]
I don't think a single religious person on here is questioning science. Just as proof is demanded of us for a God who created the universe, alexmac was asking for evidence of the atheistic start of the universe.
It goes back to the beginning of all this. We both have theories about the start. We both have to have faith to believe in it. One of the groups relies on philosophical thought, the other on emperical research. The only problem is neither of us can prove a thing.
[/b][/quote]

Well let's say that since Science has proven a lot of things I am more inclined to "believe" scientific theories, as opposed to Religion (any of them) who has yet to prove anything.
As for the proof we ask about God..Unicorns...

If somebody says something contrary to any common sense and opposed to any scientific evidence, and I can not disprove it, it doesn7t make it exist. I am not the one having to prove anything.

It's like if I tell you I met Mick Jagger yesterday and you can't disprove it, doesn't mean I did.

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 25 2009, 05:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Now if anyone tells me that kind of Church/religion has no place in society, they are probably a doer of good to those who can pay them back![/b]

Ahhh this old chesnut. It assumes you need god to tell you to be good to others. Why cant you just be good anyway? Why do you need god to tell you to do it? Personally I believe the non-believer who does good because its good, is better than the holy person who does good because he's told to.

If they dont do it because of religion, then dont take credit for it. If they do, then its because they were told how to be good. Athiests dont need to be told.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 25 2009, 05:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Oh and there are a million to one ratio of factual-cracktual info on either scientific camp[/b]

There arent two scientific camps. Get that bit straight. There are those who are trying to understand the unknown (lets call them scientists) and there are those trying to confirm the answers they have already been told (lets call that religion). One is science, the other is religion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 25 2009, 05:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

use the laws of physics and state how they apply... if we can't do that our argument is as solid as a sponge! But maybe we can get back to the original idea of this thread...[/b]

But we cant you see. I mean all you have to do is smile, wink and say that god works in mysterious ways. Either that or just ignore the point. Plenty of points have been made throughout the thread and I havent seen a decent reponse to refute any of the scientific ones (dont ask me to go back, do it yourself).

If the bible is true;

(1) How can we see galaxies that are millions of light years away? Surely their light wouldn't be here yet as the universe is not old enough?
(2) How will one third of the stars fall to the ground in the end of days? Surely the stars are larger than the Earth, and the first one that comes near our planet will vapourise it instantly.
(3) Do you believe the great flood occured
(4) Why did god create the earth and only turn on the lights the next day. Surely it would have been smarter to turn the lights on on day one, and work in better conditions. Not exactly scientific, but kinda stupid.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 25 2009, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I don't think a single religious person on here is questioning science.[/b]

Now thats simply not true. Youve just said you dont believe in the big bang, the creation of planets or suns. You believe the earth is 10,000 years old. You believe we were all created from a pile of dust (except women). You believe dinosaurs walked with man.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 25 2009, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Just as proof is demanded of us for a God who created the universe, alexmac was asking for evidence of the atheistic start of the universe. It goes back to the beginning of all this. We both have theories about the start. We both have to have faith to believe in it. One of the groups relies on philosophical thought, the other on emperical research. The only problem is neither of us can prove a thing.[/b]

Youve said this about 3 or 4 times now. i admire your persistence but your either lying, or ignoring every other reposense to this point. There arent thoeries. Science provides thoeries, Christians dont (remember the testing bit). Science has already gone far enough to disprove whats written in the bible, but because they havent gone 100% of the way (they are trying though (CERN)) you seem to take that as vindication for believing nonsense.

One believes in scientifically proven truth. The other relies on a book written 1500 years ago.

And finally, Athiests do not need faith to believe in what has been proven. Dont compare the two. Athiests have confidence in the truth. They dont subscribe to mumbo jumbo written in a book 1500 years ago that has absolutely no evidence to substantiate it. Religions on the other hand require Faith. Without it they are absolutely nothing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Oct 25 2009, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

If somebody says something contrary to any common sense and opposed to any scientific evidence, and I can not disprove it, it doesnt make it exist. I am not the one having to prove anything.[/b]

Correct. In order for a thoery to be proven it must be tested. This is why "Thoeries" like the big flying spagetti monster, the invisible pink unicorn and the celestial teapot have as much reason to be believed as Christian dogma.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 25 2009, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Just as proof is demanded of us for a God who created the universe, alexmac was asking for evidence of the atheistic start of the universe. It goes back to the beginning of all this. We both have theories about the start. We both have to have faith to believe in it. One of the groups relies on philosophical thought, the other on emperical research. The only problem is neither of us can prove a thing.[/b]

Please, if you'd read any of my posts you'd see that the Big Bang Theory is not the 'Atheistic start of the Universe'. A true atheist has no start to the Universe because nothing has yet been proven. However, of all the Theories bouncing around, the Big Bang is what fits in best with the jigsaw puzzle that is Scientific Knowledge. So, for now, the Big Bang is worth far more than something which is completely and utterly unbelievable.

What's more, I can't even qualify creationism as 'philosophical thought'.