Top14 2013/2014 squads

[Feicarsinn]

Alas, that may indeed be a fatal blow to my argument. Well played.

 

[BasqueBete]

As said, the future is laid out, adapt, or be left behind,

U can argue as much as u like....it will just make it even more difficult to change..

I don't give a flying what u decide to do....

Good luck for the future...

 

[Feicarsinn]

How is the future laid out? What are the indications that this is happening? As far as I can see things have largely stayed the same in world rugby over the past few years. No outstanding side in Europe, New Zealand still leagues ahead of everyone else. What's your evidence aside from your opinion?

 

[BasqueBete]

I don't know you tell me.... Ha ha ha

Filled stadia, new stadia, 1200 plus players professionally employed, magnet for gifted players from around the world, tv money threatening a correction of current European format....do u want much more ?

Please continue to argue...but I won't be replying, it's not for me to argue with you , as I don't give a flying what happens to the rabo...and sadly do more and more bums that ain't buying tickets to sit on seats to watch a load of ****e...

 

[Feicarsinn]

I'm sorry, but none of that indicates the major shift in global rugby you're implying. You're simply making a prediction, but as of yet there are no actual results to back it up.

 

[BasqueBete]

Just finished my viewing of the highlights of all matches in the prod2,

U should take a look at numbers of bums on seats to watch tier 2 rugby matches...

Then take a look at empty seats for rabo games....

Ha ha ha ha

It's hilarious when people refuse to seen whats in front of them....

 

[gaston le gaff]

Some of the comments in the above are true but there seems to be an awful lack of knowledge about French clubs, Take Castres for example, small town yes, middle of the road budget yes, are they going to survive well of course they are, they are sponsored by one of the biggest pharmacutical- beauty companies in France, Fabre, the old boy who owned it all, died recently and left a legacy for many many years so Castres are fincancially in no problems.
Perpignan have a naw President and sponsor, they will add to their sponsors another club coming back into the top of the Elite, Bordeaux similar case,they have big sponsors and budgets will increase with success, Montpellier have had good success, budgets increased. The only contentions will be the sides promoted from PRO D2 can they survive!!!
One massive question why are UK broadcasting companies showing TOP 14? We do not see Rabo or very little Premiership coverage, certainly no live league matches.Is has been known for years that the Irish sides play only for the H Cup, that is not a problem for me but please dont say they would survive in the TOP 14 very few side would from either UK leagues. Yes the money is here in France and it will continue to be so and the worlds best players will keep coming, i watch rugby week in week out as a club official and are priviledged to see great games all the games are televised in France YES EVERY SINGLE ONE.and are reshown during the week so by the end of the week all games are watchable, this only happens when games are worth showing which is the case for the majority of the Top 14 fixtures.

 

[BasqueBete]

It's called the commercial game....it's the blueprint

Not un commercial, union subsidised outfits playing in an un competitive boring "competition" which generally fails to bums on seats as people don't want to spend money to watch teams who do not take each game seriously but cotton wool players for debrbies, hcup and Internationals. Those countries are losing players to the competitive model and will increasingly do so...this is also followed by money which wants to come into the game...

Who would u want asspciciate ur brand with ? World stars? Or dragons c team?

This will go only one way....

C est Bon!

 

[ratsapprentice]

One massive question why are UK broadcasting companies showing TOP 14?

What?

We get to see pretty much every competition.
We have a hugely competitive sports tv landscape.

ITM Cup
Currie Cup
Super Rugby
Rugby Championship
Top14
Rabo

The only "significant" league we don't get coverage of is Japanese rugby.

 

[BasqueBete]

Good to see u have the rabble at the bottom, but I'm not sure it should be anywhere near a list of "competitions"

It is not one...

 

[Tony Manx]

Good to see u have the rabble at the bottom, but I'm not sure it should be anywhere near a list of "competitions"

It is not one...

Ah we have another Yoe with us......................!!! However, you are instigating more debate in the Top 14 threads than hithertobefore so congratulations!!

I personally do not think that Rabo compares that favourably to the Premiership and I believe the Top 14 and Pro 2 to have far greater depth than the Premiership and Chamionship................

I believe that the club game is far more enjoyable and exciting over a longer period of time than International games.

BUT I do believe that you are either s*** stirring or beng a little silly in your choice of words like "rabble" or arguments that the Top 14 is the ONLY way to go.

It is true what Gaston says in terms of the money power and full coverage in France. Rugby for a "minority" sport is covered really well in the British Isles and the reason why Top 14 is shown in the UK is because it is cheap filler for BT Sport who are trying hard to win customers at any cost over with any and everything they can get their hands on. Previously with Eurosport, it was the same thing....before that no coverage!

Each to their own and I personally am happy to watch Top 14 more than the other leagues discussed but that is a personal choice despite the fact the Biarritz are going so fast downhill that they would beat Jean-Claude Killy in a race!! Here the problem is not attracting spectators but the ownership which will have to change before anyone can invest the necessary money into it that is needed to turn it around - as turned around it can be because of the money available in the TOP 14 greatly due to TV which rights are up for negotiatiation I believe! Compare its situation to the lower teams in the UK Premiership football where entrepreneurs are always interested in buying and investing for monetay reward rather than just altruistic reasons! Only Blanco will not allow it due to his misguided amateur loyalty!!

 

[BasqueBete]

Personally, I don't like referring to leagues by sponsors names

It just so happens that some happeny bank sponsors it, and it's got a silly name, whch so happens to lead into a more apt name,

It is a rabble, thus I call it as such...

I don't give a flying how people react to my choice of name, I do believe sense of humour is sill one of our liberties, fr the time being anyhow

I've watched as much rabble games as the most avid rabble follower, and the vast majority of it is ****e...

I've been to rabble games, empty stadiums, a few people rattling round in a stadium, perhaps I shuld change the rabble to the rattle

Please let me know celts, what will cause u Least offence, what is less likely to get you rattling your toys in ur cage. The rattle or the rabble?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I give him a week.

 

[profitius]

BasqueBete, the irony of your arguement is the Top 14 is actually getting less competitive! And theres a myth out there that the French clubs play their best teams all the time. They sometimes play their B teams and still win. When Pro 12 teams do that people say they're making a mockery of the league. Don't forget that Pro 12 teams have more international players.


Lets look at the competitiveness of the Top 14. This weeks Top 14 handicaps is up already in paddypowers. Toulon are -35pts, another team -20pts and another -22pts. Thats the margin the bookies think those teams will win by!!! So the gap between the teams in the Top 14 is growing.


The Pro 12 has been a big success and getting bigger every year. Its a young competition but the difference between now and the early days of the league is every team now are putting in maximum effort to win it because winning it has a positive knock on effect. Every team is concentrating on player development rather than paying big wages to players. Sky has signed up the Pro 12 for next season and Rabodirect have cancelled there contract and theres rumours that the Pro 12 wanted that so they could bring in a bigger sponsor. So things are not looking too bad for the Pro 12 in the long term.

Personally, I don't like referring to leagues by sponsors names

What about teams jerseys being covered by sponsors? I don't like the 'Pro 12' name myself. Its a bit bland and might need to be changed again in the future.

 

[BasqueBete]

Those caps are based on weak teams going away to top teams in a week in which 2 games are played inside 4 days,
The gap in the top 14 is shortening, as excellent coaches apply moneyball tactics, Bordeaux, Grenoble, oyonnax are perfect examples, all three being teams promoted from tier 2 in recent seasons

Bordeaux have already beaten last years champs, te champs from the season before, Grenoble have already beaten the European champions..oyonnax have beaten last years hcup runners up and top14 semi finalists

Your point is?

 

[psychic duck]

BasqueBete, the irony of your arguement is the Top 14 is actually getting less competitive! And theres a myth out there that the French clubs play their best teams all the time. They sometimes play their B teams and still win. When Pro 12 teams do that people say they're making a mockery of the league. Don't forget that Pro 12 teams have more international players.


Lets look at the competitiveness of the Top 14. This weeks Top 14 handicaps is up already in paddypowers. Toulon are -35pts, another team -20pts and another -22pts. Thats the margin the bookies think those teams will win by!!! So the gap between the teams in the Top 14 is growing.


The Pro 12 has been a big success and getting bigger every year. Its a young competition but the difference between now and the early days of the league is every team now are putting in maximum effort to win it because winning it has a positive knock on effect. Every team is concentrating on player development rather than paying big wages to players. Sky has signed up the Pro 12 for next season and Rabodirect have cancelled there contract and theres rumours that the Pro 12 wanted that so they could bring in a bigger sponsor. So things are not looking too bad for the Pro 12 in the long term.

Let's not pretend the Pro12 isn't a crap league in comparison to the others. The fact the Ospreys have won the league 4 times yet as considered an underachiever and a failure based on European history just sums up the how the league is looked upon.

 

[profitius]

Those caps are based on weak teams going away to top teams in a week in which 2 games are played inside 4 days,
The gap in the top 14 is shortening, as excellent coaches apply moneyball tactics, Bordeaux, Grenoble, oyonnax are perfect examples, all three being teams promoted from tier 2 in recent seasons

Bordeaux have already beaten last years champs, te champs from the season before, Grenoble have already beaten the European champions..oyonnax have beaten last years hcup runners up and top14 semi finalists

Your point is?

My point is that the gap is growing, which it is! Just because teams lose, it just shows that they might not be going at 100% every game. Sport is unpredictable like that. Barca or Real Madrid won't win all their Spanish league matches but there is a big gap between them and the rest.


I'm not here to talk down the French league by the way. Its great to see it improve over the years. I'm trying to put a little perspective on your argument. Comparing that to the Pro 12 is like comparing apples to oranges. It would be easier to compare it to the Aviva Premiership since they're more alike.

 

[profitius]

Let's not pretend the Pro12 isn't a crap league in comparison to the others. The fact the Ospreys have won the league 4 times yet as considered an underachiever and a failure based on European history just sums up the how the league is looked upon.

Because Welsh teams are struggling! That doesn't make it a crap league that just means Welsh teams have to get their own house in order. It has benefited Wales greatly that their players are playing against quality opposition every week. Once again a little perspective is needed rather than sweeping statements.


Ospreys always were full of internationals so its a bad example highlighting them. Also saying they underachieved in Europe highlights the point that they've always had a good team.


Anyway I would say that in the early days you could rightly have accused the teams of not taking the league seriously but not for a few seasons now.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Another guerre de 100 ans is about to start youpeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[gaston le gaff]

What?

We get to see pretty much every competition.
We have a hugely competitive sports tv landscape.

ITM Cup
Currie Cup
Super Rugby
Rugby Championship
Top14
Rabo

The only "significant" league we don't get coverage of is Japanese rugby.

So they show every game in every league, i dont think so, my point is why show inferior rugby when you can show the best, in France TOP14, PRO D2, Super Rugby, and nearly all important internationals. but no Rabo and very little Premiership. Lets not start the old story of my league is better than yours rubbish, facts are plain to see the TOP 14 attracts the best players from all over the World, and it is becoming a major force in World rugby and it is not just the money!! Every team has its quota of excellent foreign players,and the jewel at the end at the end of the season is the Bouclier de Brennus, ask Wilco how much he wants it, the only reason he still whats to play is to win it.
In his own words on a Canal + doc. "you do not understand the importance of the Bouclier de Brennus until you dont win it" and that is now 2, years on the trot for JW.
We are very priviledged in France to have quality RUGBY week in week out and every game is televised, so you can watch them all at your own leisure where else does that happen certainly not in the UK.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Lets not start the old story of my league is better than yours rubbish

facts are plain to see the TOP 14 attracts the best players from all over the World, and it is becoming a major force in World rugby and it is not just the money!

The T14 has started to attract the best players from the SH (that are also coming to the end of their international careers) because of the money.
Playing in a town like Toulon or Toulouse where they will be famous and live a fairly nice lifestyle outside of their rugby is certainly a draw too.
Saying it's not about money is supremely naive.
It's not that much different from the EPL.

I have been able to watch French rugby for a number of years and choose not to, I simply don't enjoy it as much as I do other leagues.
It is enjoyable, certainly, but it's no way near as popular as S15 is with people outside of France.

People generally prefer their domestic league more than other domestic leagues.
I don't understand where this whole "we are the envy of the world" thing has come from.

 

[BasqueBete]

To hear someone say that the rattle is appriached seriously every week, well I've got bruises from falling of my seat and onto my arse

Just where the rattle is ..

The only thing not arse about the rattle, is the failure to put arses on seats..

English and French clubs do not have luxury of cotton wooling players on an industrial scale to benefit hcup and intls etc

They exist in the commercial world

England has tier two, which with investment will replicate prod2 level of professionalism

That will then be 54 clubs in France n England needing 40 players per squad...

Where will they come from...u work it out...


Protest as much as u want, rattle ur cages, but the future is going only one way, just like ur players...

 

[BasqueBete]

Sure, but I see swathes of empty seats in the super xv, the itm , the currie cup

Money talks....

Competitive leagues will attract bums on seats, tv viewers, players, sponsors

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm not saying the T14 isn't a successful league.
It's attendance and viewing figures are enviable.
Does that mean I'd prefer to watch it than any other league? ...not necessarily.

 

[gaston le gaff]

I think this debate is growing old and tiresome so lets just say the TOP 14 is by far the best Pro league and have done with it and move on to something slighty more interesting like Weds. full TOP 14 fixtures which are tomorrow if anyone remembers!!! Everybody is allowed at least one mistake in their lives, that is unless you support Montpellier and then of course perfection is just round the corner i'm sure you must all understand that!!!!

 

[psychic duck]

Because Welsh teams are struggling! That doesn't make it a crap league that just means Welsh teams have to get their own house in order. It has benefited Wales greatly that their players are playing against quality opposition every week. Once again a little perspective is needed rather than sweeping statements.


Ospreys always were full of internationals so its a bad example highlighting them. Also saying they underachieved in Europe highlights the point that they've always had a good team.


Anyway I would say that in the early days you could rightly have accused the teams of not taking the league seriously but not for a few seasons now.

I didn't mention at all about Welsh team struggling in my post, so I don't know why you've brought that up.

Also there is some right ******** in your post. How are Zebre, Dragons, Connacht, Edinburgh, Cardiff Blues quality opposition? How are Ospreys, Scarlets, Leinster, Munster quality opposition when they are weakened heavily by player welfare schemes and call ups weeks before internationals? They're not.

I don't see where the point was made that the Ospreys never had a good team either. Nobody is questioning the fact Leinster, Munster, Ospreys have had good squads and reached Heineken Cup knockout stages. It's just the prize is weakened in credibility and the fact the Ospreys barely care or are given credit for their 4 league titles is evidence of this.

 

[BasqueBete]

Good, we finished that one for now, some people really are full of ****...

 

[big ginger 8]

Ah this thread. There's some stuff I wouldn't mind saying but it would pale in comparison to what some have said especially the one who couldn't give a flying.

 

[Tony Manx]

........can we call this thread finished now then please!

 

[big ginger 8]

........can we call this thread finished now then please!

I'm done anyway.