Tri Nations: All Blacks - Springboks @ Westpac Stadium (30-07-2011, 07:35 GMT)

Discussion in 'Tri Nations 2009-2011' started by Darwin, Jul 26, 2011.

  1. FlukeArtist

    FlukeArtist Bench Player

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    I'm sorry, but Messam is not up to International level.

    Good sevens and provincial player, But I have yet to see him make an impact for the ABs.

    I would have selected Bourke over him a long time ago.
     
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  3. donmcdazzle

    donmcdazzle First XV

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    Crazy statement. Bourke always ranks as the lowest loose forward in stats like tackles made and rucks hit. Meanwhile he averages the highest number of kicking metres for a foward. Last season was something like 84 kicking metres per game! He is a massive seagull with such a low workrate. He won't even see the light of day for the Chiefs next season I don't think (Rennie seems to value hard workers more than seagulls). I think his main problem was moving to number 8. He should have stayed leaner and played in the backs. Was a fullback for the NZ secondary schools back in the day.
     
  4. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    the guy has had what 5-7 tests? people have said that about players like Jerome Kaino, Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu and others who after a few years and sometimes 20 or more caps to settle at test level.

    Test Rugby is a step up and very few find their feet after only a few test matches, Messam blew his chance in 2008 but he has fixed the aspects of his game that failed him. He's improved a huge amount since then. His only real chance recently was against Scotland last year and he was very good in that game he was also pretty good in the couple cameos off the bench in the tri nations last year and he certinly didn't show any less potential than Thompson or Kaino on saturday.

    I hope he does find his feet at test level and get some real chances. Because out of these three guys Messam is the most complete player. Super15 stats echo that, where Thompson and Kaino have areas they excel at they also had areas they were weak where Messams stats were pretty much faultless accross the board. And he blows the others away in his strong areas.

    And as a chiefs supporter as well because if their is just one guy in the chiefs that has earned AB selection it's Liam Messam.
     
  5. donmcdazzle

    donmcdazzle First XV

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    Agree with all that. He has pretty much every tool a 6/8 would seem to need. And you're right it is a case of him finding his feet at test level rather than lacking any ability. I hope he can cause he is awesome for the Chiefs.
     
  6. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    bingo, looks like I was correct.

    Top ball carriers for the All Blacks Forwards were McCaw (eight), Messam and Thomson (seven each), and Kaino, Hore and Ali Williams (five each).

    interesting since ~messam only had what ~25 min and McCaw & Thompson had 80, Kaino ~55min[TABLE="class: tablestyle_4, width: 30, align: center"]
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  7. donmcdazzle

    donmcdazzle First XV

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    Saw those and was surprised, didn't think Messam was as busy as that so maybe he did have a better game than I gave him credit for. Thomson had a great all round game with high numbers for rucks hit, tackles made and carries.
     
  8. FlukeArtist

    FlukeArtist Bench Player

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    Stats are one thing.
    I bet Reuben Thorne had some good stats too.
    I never rated him either.

    In my opinion Messam is nowhere near the player that the other international loose forwards are.
     
  9. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    Yet three different Coaching setups selected Ruben Thorn for the All Blacks......
     
  10. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    Yip Full list

    Ball carries - metres gained
    McCaw 8 - 58
    Messam 7 - 48
    Thomsom 7 - 46
    Kaino 5 - 35
    Hore 5 - 28
    A Williams 5 - 37
    Franks 4 - 30
    Crockett 3 - 23
    Whitelock 3 - 3
    Flynn 1 - 7

    not a bad 25min effort from messam.

    some of the stats dont make much sense but one that really impressd me was Crockett's Breakdown arrivals. 3rd Equal with Thompson is very impressive for a prop.

    Stats for Both McCaw and Hore were pretty awesome though. Those guys had awesome games.
     
  11. FlukeArtist

    FlukeArtist Bench Player

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    Perhaps that says something about the competition going around at that time too....


    Anyway- sorry I just saw your "pet 15" on your signature, so I can understand your reaction to someone not liking one of you "pets"
    As I say- its just my opinion mate. Don't take it to heart.
    I just don't rate Messam.
     
  12. Rhyer

    Rhyer Academy Player

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    Read is absolutely amazing, incredibly strong, should be good to see him up against the Wallabies. I prefer Messam on the bench, Thomson has no physical presence and doesn't ruck like an openside where as Messam does.
     
  13. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    what a shitty Saturday this was for me, woke up early for work, got home at 9:30am to watch the game (just missed the HAKA) and off they go... had South African Commentators Bob Skinstad and can't remember the other guy on...

    Commentators keep on blasting the Ref for his bad calls against the Boks and his well documented Hatred for John Smit. Bob keeps on talking about previous games where Rolland overlooks 50/50 calls when it's at the advantage of the boks... first 20 minutes gone and i didn't really see the ref doing much wrong... then i start to see what Skinstad is talking about... 3 times Hore is the Assisted Tackler and then doesn't release the ball and then blows SA up for holding on...

    rucks was very messy and the ref didn't help out at all. then don't get me started about Carter's kick return which resulted in Nonu being held up by De Jongh. a clear professional foul by Mccaw to take out Jacobs in the midfield and Carter going through that made gap and then offloading to Nonu... also the Touchjudges was terrible for not seeing that or the many skew throw ins by both hookers at the line-outs.

    Okay, I know what all you guys are going to say... and I totally agree with you: You can't Blame the ref. i agree the Boks were ****!!

    Morne Steyn is not a Full Back and he looks very tired
    John Smit didn't control the guys and was **** all night, apart from the try
    Allistair Hargreaves is a lock that doesn't know how to jump in a line-out??? as good as he was last week, he was everything a lock shouldn't be... back-hand pass to nobody also didn't do any good.
    Mvovo and Basson needs to work on catching the ****ing ball!!

    I think the biggest problem the boks have at the moment is they don't have a defensive organiser like Jaque Fourie on this tour... nobody to guide everyone where they have to be...

    oh and don't get me started on Gary Gold!! everytime the cameras went to the coaches box we was busy swearing like an aussie whore, red in the face - come on you fatty, you are the first in line to be fired!! you don't know **** about rugby! and you're making the Boks forwards look like a bunch of pussies!!
     
  14. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    It doesn't matter how deep Russel Crowe's pockets are.... two words.

    SALARY CAP!!!
     
  15. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    Where are you getting those stats from?

    They differ markedly from the ones I have...(mine in red)

    McCaw 8 - 58 (9 - 22)
    Messam 7 - 48 (9 - 35)
    Thomson 7 - 46 (9 - 28)
    Kaino 5 - 35 (5 - 18)
    Hore 5 - 28 (5 - 9)
    A Williams 5 - 37 (6 - 74)
    Franks 4 - 30 (5 - 17)
    Crockett 3 - 23 (3 - 11)
    Whitelock 3 - 3 (3 - 0)
    Flynn 1 - 7 (0 - 0)


    My source: http://www.espnscrum.com/tri-nations-2011/rugby/match/121712.html



    BTW, here are the overall match stats for anyone interested

    [TEXTAREA][TABLE="align: center"]
    <tbody>[TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]New Zealand[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextBlk"][/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]South Africa[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]6[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Tries[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]2 from 6[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Conversion goals[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]1 from 1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]2 from 2[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Penalty goals[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]0 from 1[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]50.0%[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Kick at goal success[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]50.0%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]0[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Dropped goals[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]0[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="colspan: 3"][​IMG][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextBlk, colspan: 3"]Kick/pass/run[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]30[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Kicks from hand[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]21[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]177[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Passes[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]114[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]114[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Runs[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]86[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]655[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Metres run with ball[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]220[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="colspan: 3"][​IMG][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextBlk, colspan: 3"]Attacking[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]4[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Clean breaks[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]2[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]19[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Defenders beaten[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]4[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]13[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Offloads[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]5[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"] 75 from 78 (96.15%)[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Rucks won[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"] 62 from 71 (87.32%)[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]13[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Turnovers conceded[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]17[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="colspan: 3"][​IMG][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextBlk, colspan: 3"]Defensive[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]86[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Tackles[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]103[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]4[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Missed tackles[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]19[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]95.56%[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Tackling success rate[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]84.43%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="colspan: 3"][​IMG][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextBlk, colspan: 3"]Set pieces[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]11 won, 1 lost[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Scrums on own feed[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]6 won, 2 lost[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"] 91.7%[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Scrum success rate[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"] 75.0%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]12 won, 0 lost[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Lineouts on own throw[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]10 won, 3 lost[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"] 100.0%[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Lineout success rate[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"] 76.9%[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="colspan: 3"][​IMG][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextBlk, colspan: 3"]Discipline[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowGry"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]9[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Penalties conceded[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]12[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="class: liveTblRowWht"]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]0/0[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblTextGrn"]Yellow/red cards[/TD]
    [TD="class: liveTblColCtr"]0/0[/TD]
    [/TR]
    </tbody>[/TABLE]


    [/TEXTAREA]
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2011
  16. TRF Mr Fish

    TRF Mr Fish Your Piscine Overlord

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  17. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    I got the stats from here

    http://www.haka.co.nz/

    interesting, it's hard to know which ones are right. I can see some clear errors on the haka stats that just dont make sense. Though the espn stats make Messams 25min even more impressive I find it hard to believe McCaw only made 22m in 9 runs. Thats clearly not right. And Ali Williams 74m in 6 hitups doesn't look correct either.
     
  18. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    I agree in a nutshell, though Thompson does have some obvious strengths to his game physicality isn't one of them. Watching the game again untill Messam went on the AB's lacked in that area. With Both Thompson and Sam Whitelock on who lack in physicality it left a big gap for McCaw, Williams and Kaino to fill and McCaw was the only one to do the job. Alot of thompsons work was done out wide. Messam came on and made himself available to take the ball to the line and also to support Mils in returning kicks and did it well. The stats just prove that.

    I really like sam whitelock, but if there was one payer who kinda lacked in that game it was Sam. Looking at the stats he didn't make a huge amount of tackles. Wasn't used much in the lineout. He was a non-factor as a ball carrier and he was also well down the list in terms of breakdown performance - honestly I was a bit shocked Crockett and Hore beat him in that area (in terms of being one of the first 3 players to a ruck). I would never think They were more mobile than Sam, though I get the feeling Sam just hasn't been 100% since his injury.

    Looking forward to Boric's return. He's the type of player you will always see near the top of the tackle count at the end of the game and he gets stuck in as a ball carrier over the advantage line as well. Hoeata didn't deliver against Fiji and with Thorn comming back in now he may not get another chance. Can't help but think now that Donnelly would have been a better option. It does seem to take a while to get test locks experienced enough to make a good impact. Donnelly seemed to do a pretty good job for the AB's from test 1 which is pretty rare.
     
  19. TRF Mr Fish

    TRF Mr Fish Your Piscine Overlord

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    There are so many <10 cap All Black locks floating round...
     
  20. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    Tracey Nelson does a great job with the stats on that site. I have heard her doing ITM Cup commentary for RadioSport and NewstalkZB sometimes, as well have giving running stats comments.
     
  21. Rhyer

    Rhyer Academy Player

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    Missed tackles is wrong. I remember after watching the game and they were going through the stats, it showed 24 for South Africa.
     
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