Trouble in Wales?

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

This is probably an unpopular, uneducated view. I grew up watching rugby in the late 1980s. From that point until the regions came into being, Wales were always competing with Ireland for wooden spoons in the 5 Nations. In the inaugural Celtic League, Welsh teams finished in the bottom 5 spots in pool A and 4 of the bottom 5 spots in pool B. In the second year of that competition, Welsh teams finished in the bottom 5 spots in pool A, the bottom 2 spots in pool B and got the 6 Nations wooden spoon.

Then the regions came in. Welsh teams finished in 5 of the top 6 spots in the Celtic League in the first year including the champions. The next year they once again provided the champions and finished in 3 of the top 5 spots. The following season came a 6 Nations Grand Slam. 2007, 2010, 2012 and 2017 saw further Celtic League/ Pro 12 ***les. 2008 and 2012 saw further Grand Slams and 2013 another 6 Nations championship.

I think regional rugby has been good for Wales and lifted them from the doldrums.

 

[bushytop]

This is probably an unpopular, uneducated view. I grew up watching rugby in the late 1980s. From that point until the regions came into being, Wales were always competing with Ireland for wooden spoons in the 5 Nations. In the inaugural Celtic League, Welsh teams finished in the bottom 5 spots in pool A and 4 of the bottom 5 spots in pool B. In the second year of that competition, Welsh teams finished in the bottom 5 spots in pool A, the bottom 2 spots in pool B and got the 6 Nations wooden spoon.

Then the regions came in. Welsh teams finished in 5 of the top 6 spots in the Celtic League in the first year including the champions. The next year they once again provided the champions and finished in 3 of the top 5 spots. The following season came a 6 Nations Grand Slam. 2007, 2010, 2012 and 2017 saw further Celtic League/ Pro 12 ***les. 2008 and 2012 saw further Grand Slams and 2013 another 6 Nations championship.

I think regional rugby has been good for Wales and lifted them from the doldrums.

Spot on!

 

[dullonien]

Not unpopular at all Snoop. Just a minority of supporters who miss the amateur days where a small town club could be competitive. They somehow think that if we went back to clubs, Ponty would compete with Leinster, Saracens & Clermont. The reality is they would be lambs to the slaughter, probably succumbing to 100 point losses!

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Not unpopular at all Snoop. Just a minority of supporters who miss the amateur days where a small town club could be competitive. They somehow think that if we went back to clubs, Ponty would compete with Leinster, Saracens & Clermont. The reality is they would be lambs to the slaughter, probably succumbing to 100 point losses!

That's exactly how it appears to me and, making an assumption here, most people outside Wales. I feel for people in the valleys and other places that lost their top teams but in reality, those towns weren't big enough to support pro teams. The talent was too spread out and by concentrating it on 5 and then 4 teams, Wales have prospered internationally to a point where they're genuine World Cup contenders

It's also often trotted out that Ireland were lucky to have the provinces which people identified with. That's overstated. In the 90s, the AIL was king. Games between Shannon and Garryowen, for example, were televised live on Sky in front of 10000 fans. The provinces were lucky to see more than the families of players turn up. The IRFU got their **** together and sold the provinces to the public.

The WRU could have done a better job selling the regions to the public. An 8 year old in 2002 when the regions began is now 25 and won't remember the supposed glory days of club rugby. It's a shame that fans of that age and younger haven't been engaged to greater extent. The potential support base is there as witnessed by Wales consistently selling out the Principality Stadium.

 

[Every Time Ref]

The WRU could have done a better job selling the regions to the public. An 8 year old in 2002 when the regions began is now 25 and won't remember the supposed glory days of club rugby. It's a shame that fans of that age and younger haven't been engaged to greater extent. The potential support base is there as witnessed by Wales consistently selling out the Principality Stadium.

As an outsider this is what I have never understood about the received wisdom that "Welsh fans don't support the regions". Surely it's fewer and fewer fans each year who even remember the days when The Ospreys didn't exist, and of those who remember surely most don't care?

A good friend (35yo) is from Swansea and supports the Ospreys, I've never heard him bemoan the loss of club rugby, I don't even know who he supported - if he even did. My cousins are in Pembrokeshire, they always supported Llanelli* and now they support Scarlets with no discernible bad feeling about the regional system. Surely these can't be minorities? It can't be that difficult to sell local professional rugby to people who like watching rugby can it? Maybe I'm being naive about the strength of feeling

*for those in the know: a ragdoll was apparently present at my aunt (near Bath) and uncle (Llanelli)'s wedding!

 

[Thingimubob]

Ospreys chairman resigned over the WRU's handling of everything: http://www.ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/54260

Ken Owens "deeply concerned" by the uncertainty: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47457719

Nicely done WRU... great timing with two huge 6 Nations games on the horizon.

 

[oj121]

I am from Bridgend. Grew up watching the likes of Howley, Gareth Thomas etc most weeks at the Brewery field but I have lived out with the Saes for 11 years now. I am now a Blues supporter.

Logically this redesign is for the next 20-30 years plus so needs to be done properly without the biggots set in the 80s and 90s.

There needs to be a Western region based near to their biggest population areas. Somewhere in West Swansea leadung towards Llanelli.

An Eastern region probably set in Cardiff or maybe along the M4 corridor to the eastern side. Cardiff, Newport, Ebbw etc

A central region based around Bridgend purely for transport links encompassing neath, port talbort, bridgend, ponty similar to the old warriors but reaching further east and west.

Lastly a northern region based near Colwyn or Wrexham.

As hard as it is you cant just have the super clubs because they were great in the day.

Take 75% of the attendances for ospreys and scarlets and add them together. Not a bad crowd. Same from Blues and Newport. I say tske 75 as it allows for 25% to refuse to move forward. Those crowds mean a far more sustainable future.

 

[MikeTheNative]

That was the problem with the current regions, The WRU didn't start fresh but bowed to a few select clubs and based the regions around them, so I get to a certain degree why some supporters of certain clubs were a bit aggrieved. It might be wrong but from what I've seen said so far the merger idea was proposed by the clubs and not the WRU.

 

[Thingimubob]

That was the problem with the current regions, The WRU didn't start fresh but bowed to a few select clubs and based the regions around them, so I get to a certain degree why some supporters of certain clubs were a bit aggrieved. It might be wrong but from what I've seen said so far the merger idea was proposed by the clubs and not the WRU.

This.

As Snoop said, the regions have certainly brought a higher level of rugby to Wales with far more professional set ups, which has fed through to a more successful Welsh side on the international scene.

However like Mike says above, they messed up by not starting fresh, which has left us to to the problem we see today.

I was maybe 11 or 12 when the regions came in, and only probably started following club rugby properly a few years after this, so the Blues are the only club level team I've followed.

I don't see how going back to the old club system is even remotely possible with modern rugby finances, and as ever it's only the old guard who really want a return to that.

That said - much of the old Celtic Warriors region is still left behind, so I do feel for them and understand why they're still so frustrated.*

*This does not include Valleys Commando, he was just a bit of a ****.

 

[bushytop]

This.

As Snoop said, the regions have certainly brought a higher level of rugby to Wales with far more professional set ups, which has fed through to a more successful Welsh side on the international scene.

However like Mike says above, they messed up by not starting fresh, which has left us to to the problem we see today.

I was maybe 11 or 12 when the regions came in, and only probably started following club rugby properly a few years after this, so the Blues are the only club level team I've followed.

I don't see how going back to the old club system is even remotely possible with modern rugby finances, and as ever it's only the old guard who really want a return to that.

That said - much of the old Celtic Warriors region is still left behind, so I do feel for them and understand why they're still so frustrated.*

*This does not include Valleys Commando, he was just a bit of a ****.

Although they should have done it (fully realised regions rather than super clubs) long ago... when Moffett suggested it actually... this (the time when they are tinkering anyway) may as well be the time when we bite the bullet and get all our ducks in a row.

WRU... if your listening... redraw the map!

 

[Thingimubob]

Well the plot thickens with the latest Ospreys statement:

http://www.ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/54262

Below being the most interesting bit:

 

[bushytop]

Well the plot thickens with the latest Ospreys statement:

http://www.ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/54262

Below being the most interesting bit:

View attachment 7087

Just read the whole article and fair play to the Osprey's, that is how to act classy in the face of receiving the ****-end of the stick.

My take has been since the first rumours, that the WRU still want to have 4 regions and this statement seems to back this up... they are just intent on one of those regions being in the north (where just under a third of the Welsh population live)... which clearly leaves 3 along the M4.

Although the Dragons have criminally underachieved these past couple of decades, I heard a stat that there are more rugby clubs in the Dragons catchment than in any other... so if that is correct, you can not close down that avenue for players to come through.

Blues... also underachievers, even with a couple of Challenge Cups but you can not have no rugby in the biggest city in Wales. Not to mention the masses of towns and villages dotted around the capital.

Which leaves the Ospreys and the Scarlets... the two most successful regions since the game went regional. If this decision had to have been made 10 years ago, the talk would clearly be fold the Scarlets into the O's but as fortunes have changed so has the primary option. Me personally, I'd 'give' the eastern border of Ospreylia (Bridgend & Pencoed... maybe even Port Talbot) to the Blues Region and then have the Scarlett Ospreys (uuurrggghh... please come up with something better) operating out of... well ideally Swansea but what with Parc y Scarlets being owned while the Liberty a rental... I'm not really sure.

 

[ThebigARena]

Sorry but the idea of a northern region is ridiculous. Just where is the talent pool coming from exactly? . The biggest town up have no interest in rugby union. Wrexham , Rhyl Llandudno etc are all footballing town they also have a catchment of a large majorities of Wirral scousers based community who absolutely hate rugby. The kids in school up there. don't have an interest in playing rugby union either.

 

[Amiga500]

Just read the whole article and fair play to the Osprey's, that is how to act classy in the face of receiving the ****-end of the stick.

Meh - its the **** end of the stick but someone has to get it.

They are calling for "A new process must be expedited, with respected and competent leadership - professionally outlined and responsibly led - with transparency and genuine consultation as its foundation. "

What if it arrives at the same conclusion?


For me I'd send the regions out around the bloody grounds for games. Bring the game to the people you want to drag in, rather than expect them to arrive at your doorstep.

 

[ThebigARena]

I can just about swallow a Scarlets ospreys merger though but the matches would have to be played at parc y Scarlets imo. Geographically if it's a West region then Llanelli would make most sense in that regard.

 

[bushytop]

Sorry but the idea of a northern region is ridiculous. Just where is the talent pool coming from exactly? . The biggest town up have no interest in rugby union. Wrexham , Rhyl Llandudno etc are all footballing town they also have a catchment of a large majorities of Wirral scousers based community who absolutely hate rugby. The kids in school up there. don't have an interest in playing rugby union either.

I think that's the point bud... we are currently missing out on the potential players that just under a million people could produce... and the only way that is gonna change is by engaging that community.

I would imagine the WRU will initially use the region to give young players (fresh out of the under 20's) regular 1st team rugby but with the eventual aim of it fostering enough talent to justify the investment.

 

[higgik]

I don't think it is financially viable to repeatedly move the home ground for a team during the season, are you not incurring extra costs for stadia lying dormant? I know Munster may be the exception to that rule, but I'd like to see their balance sheet.

I'd move Judgement Day to the start of the season to try and gain some traction when there is still optimism about the club's fortune.

I'd happily see Wales lose a team if it was best for them, but I don't see the timing as being good for a new SA, Scottish or Italian franchise to take its place.

The London Double header works well as a season starter for the Premiership, so think it would do well as the season opener in Wales, maybe extend it to include an Irish Judgement day in Dublin and an alternate, Italian/Scottish in either Glasgow, Edinburgh or Milan.

 

[Amiga500]

maybe extend it to include an Irish Judgement day in Dublin

Would be no point doing it in Dublin - Leinster Munster would sell out most years on its own.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

This is probably an unpopular, uneducated view. I grew up watching rugby in the late 1980s. From that point until the regions came into being, Wales were always competing with Ireland for wooden spoons in the 5 Nations. In the inaugural Celtic League, Welsh teams finished in the bottom 5 spots in pool A and 4 of the bottom 5 spots in pool B. In the second year of that competition, Welsh teams finished in the bottom 5 spots in pool A, the bottom 2 spots in pool B and got the 6 Nations wooden spoon.

Then the regions came in. Welsh teams finished in 5 of the top 6 spots in the Celtic League in the first year including the champions. The next year they once again provided the champions and finished in 3 of the top 5 spots. The following season came a 6 Nations Grand Slam. 2007, 2010, 2012 and 2017 saw further Celtic League/ Pro 12 ***les. 2008 and 2012 saw further Grand Slams and 2013 another 6 Nations championship.

I think regional rugby has been good for Wales and lifted them from the doldrums.

I mostly agree, although apart from the inaugural season the Dragons have been totally useless, and success at European level for all the teams has still proven to be elusive.

 

[Taffelaide]

Think it's owned by the council still? Though think they now lease it to Swansea City FC - dunno who the Ospreys pay rent to either way.

Also seeing a lot of people on twitter saying "just go back to Welsh clubs instead ffs" with no indication how that is even possible

How was any of it possible? How did we get to this **** state whilst selling the soul of Welsh rugby?

This reset is the chance to fix the mistakes, not make more.

Going back to club wont happen of course, but mergers need to be done properly creating new entities with identities covering the rugby areas.
To alienate the valleys in the way the WRU has is criminal. The Blues are as soulless as franchises come, though improving now they are at the CAP, though that is its own millstone (as are the Dragons). The only one that has any feeling to it is the Scarlets.

Wales is country of tradition heritage and history, sadly it is not reflected in the rugby clubs. This lies at the feet of those who devised the regions in the first place.

If there are to be 2 regions in the south they'd have to be Cardiff and Llanelli from their traditional grounds. This would at least give the feel of rugby.
If that means properly absorbing the Valleys clubs into the Cardiff region, then do it properly. Llanelli can have the West.

These teams then need to enter the English pyramid system to have a decent competition.