Tuilagi and England's centres

[ratsapprentice]

He wouldn't have been able to do too much passing during his layoff because he had a chest injury.

I'm sure he must the ability to distribute to a reasonable level - the issue is that he isn't doing it.

Is his lack of passing mainly down to the fact that he grew up playing as a winger?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Lets compare the teams Manu has had to play in to Burrell.

Youngs, Old Farrell, Ashton, Barritt, Manu, Brown (on the wing which he is not) and Goode.

Compare this to.

Care, New Farrell, May, 36, Burrell, Nowell, and Brown (at fullback where he belongs).

Which one is better doesn't take a genius to work out.

You're comparing a player who has played just around 120 mins of rugby this season to a player who has been starting regularly this whole season.

Give him a break in England he has been there only weapon in the backs when ever he has played (bar Italy). For Leicester he passes he offloads. Maybe the game plan is to give it to manu to crash ball it, he was always passed the ball on the gain line marked up by 2/3 players Burrell doesn't have that problem yet.

 

[goodNumber10]

To be fair, and i'll probably get called out on this, i thought before this season that the best balanced our backline looked was against scotland last year with 36 at 12 and Barrett at 13.

you're right though he's been out for a while, so he deserves the chance to play his way back into the team.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Yeah I made this point in another thread. Manu is use to playing with no-one with any really quality(for England) and now he is surrounded by good quality players and I feel he has to trust in them more. Before he was 'the man' now he is a component in our attack, he has to add more too his game because it changes our attack. What I would like to add though is in this six nations it would not surprise me if Tuilagi had 4+ tries because our attack would have given him the chances and he was scoring before when he got the ball thrown too him and we said 'do something with this' . It doesn't matter if he is predictable because if you ask De Villiers, McCaw, Carter and most of the other teams he has played how easy he was to stop, he ran straight at De Villiers 3 times and knocked him over twice in the summer tour. Though we could play them together and scare the **** out of other teams we play. Big Ewis is right in a way that power can help, Burrell and Tuilagi are very quick strong men but I don't think that they would be smart enough to work together and release other players at the right time and kick etc. You need to have a player like Eastmond or 36 who has a good reading of the game and know when too go and when to not.I know that Burrell and North have played together but when they do play together in the centres Northampton become very predictable... still beat Leinster though.

 

[Peat]

Tuilagi can pass. Tuilagi doesn't pass. The latter is a bigger issue.

I think the reason he doesn't pass is he doesn't really need to. He can always make things happen through brute strength. He's still the biggest kid in the playground. The coaches need to work on his mentality.

I don't think he should have been involved on Saturday. I don't think he was up to speed.

Tuilagi vs Burrell is an interesting question. I suspect we'll continue to see Tuilagi. What he does, no one else can do. It's very hard lines on Burrell, and possibly the wrong call, but its what I think Lancaster will do.

I'd be interesting on seeing him on the wing. If he can time his runs and come looking for work, and be secure in the winger basics, it's a hugely tempting option. May, Nowell, Yarde, all have had chances and imo none have nailed down a shirt. They have talent and aren't pointless picks, but they still have maturing to do.

I think we need to continue to have a playmaking 12, it seems to help Fazlet hugely.

 

[Goodey]

Tuilagi is the best player we've had since the class of 2003 retired. It's madness to leave him out just because his competition has had a good start in his absence.

Burrell has said that he still prefers playing at 12, but he is not the second playmaker role that Twelvetrees has been playing to improve the backline as a whole. He's an excellent player to have in depth, what's wrong with that? If he's on the bench then he can either come on for Tuilagi or provide 10 cover by playing him at 12 moving 36 inside.

 

[goodNumber10]

by the same reasoning whats wrong with Tuilagi sitting on the bench until he gets and takes his chance? We have looked a good and balance midfield and Burrell has held his own against 3 of the best 13's in the world - BOd, Davies and Fatserau - ok well maybe 2 then.

we don't need 10 cover from 36 as we have Ford on the bench, have we learnt nothing in needing a genuine 10 on the bench?

Tuilagi is a good player, and i doubt anyone will grumble if he comes back in, but burrell got a chance and grabbed it with both hands if Tuilagi wasn't fit we'd not be saying get rid of him.

 

[ruggabee]

The 12trees/Burrell midfield worked well. Not that exciting in my opinion but solid. Maybe Tuilagi can make the 23 jersey his own? He can cover the midfield and wing. He'd be a treasure to have coming off the bench in the last quarter of a game. In an age where it takes more than just the first XV to win games maybe this should be an option until he shows improvement in his distribution.

edit. Oops didn't really read this thread properly and goodNumber10 has already pretty much said what I said..

 

[Aristodemus]

He is being told to run hard for England but I think he offers a huge amount on the field, much more than Burrell. He causes panic in opposition defence and drags defenders to cover him leaving more space for others, what we need is a real creative gem of a 12 like Eastmond to exploit the space it creates. He also can target weak FH's because having someone like Manu run down your throat a few times hurts performance and he can clear out like a boss too providing quick ball when needed. He is a great player and frankly I am pretty shocked so many people don't want him back. Best wrecking ball centre in world rugby in my eyes.

As fpr goodnumber10 comments on the NZ match, he created one try? Check the Barritt try out, that was ALL Tuilagi. The best centre in the world was dragged out of position because he was worried about Manu then the guy who can't pass sucks both defenders in and offloads.

 

[Big Ewis]

Big Ewis is right in a way that power can help

boy oh boy, talk about an understatement...
yeahhhhh, in Rugby, prrrrrrrrretty sure it sort of can...

 

[TheSaffycen]

It can help but just brute strength doesn't always work, watch wales vs england, you have to have a rugby brain to utilise it. You should know you have a centre who is just power and nothing else and for France he is ****ing hopeless.

 

[McTallshort]

ummm I am a very big Manu fan but must say the not just the centres but the whole backline has improved massively since the AIs but to say its just because Burrell is playing is being a bit simplistic. The backline has improved because....

1.Danny Care is playing brilliantly.
2.Owen Farrell is playing better in attack.
3.36 is finally showing the form we all hoped he would because he has been very ordinary for England until now.
4.Ashton has been dropped.
5.Goode has been dropped
6.We finally have 2 wingers that can play...you know well.
7.Brown is in the form of his life.

Add all this up and if Manu had been at 13 instead of Burrell are we saying the results would have been different? Sorry no I dont buy it.

 

[Goodey]

Tallshort is correct in that the composition of the backline as a whole has improved. In particular the role that 36 is playing as a second distributor outside Farrell gives him far more options and confidence. I don't quite agree that our new wingers have started all that well, but it's a step forward from The Liability Formerly Known as Ashton.

People saying "Tuilagi can't pass" is a shining example of the fallacy that all players have to have some kind of equal skill level in total, and so his excellent power must mean that he spent more skill points on that or something, so he can't pass. It's rubbish.

His defence is also better than Burrell's.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

His defence is also better than Burrell's.

I don't buy that. I'd say they're both pretty equal. One on one tackling for both is excellent, and while they both make errors in positioning neither is more susceptible to it than the other (Burrell has obviously worked on this, and it's paid off).

I think the 13 shirt should stay with Burrell at the moment - he's been playing very well, and Tuilagi should be made to earn it back, as any player should in an international side.
I wouldn't have had him on the bench vs Italy, as he'd only played 80mins since....september? october? and he didn't look great in those 80minutes (including a really poor error to allow Cato to score).
There's plenty of time for Tuilagi to get his mojo back, and having him and Burrell fighting it out for the 13 shirt is only going to make each player work harder and improve more.
I only hope that Lancaster chooses the player who is on the best form, and doesn't just default to Tuilagi when he's fit regardless of how he's playing.
Having Tuilagi on the bench is a good option, I think, as well. You've got players who can cover 15 on the pitch, and him coming on at 60minutes is going to scare the crap out of tired defences.


For the record I also think the "Tuilagi can't pass" thing is old, tired, worn out and not true.

 

[McTallshort]

"For the record I also think the "Tuilagi can't pass" thing is old, tired, worn out and not true."

Yeah its like Robshaw isnt a 7 or Ben Morgan cannot last 80 minutes

 

[ratsapprentice]

Robshaw isn't a 7.

No-one is saying he can't pass - he doesn't in an England shirt.

Let's compare the number of passes he makes to the two premiere OC's in their last 10 international starts:

Manu - 29
Conrad Smith - 65
Brian O'Driscoll - 72

With more time in the current set-up he may well alter his style somewhat... I'm doubtful though.

 

[McTallshort]

"Robshaw isn't a 7"

Seems to be doing a fairly good impression of one

 

[ratsapprentice]

Not really... he's just a generic flanker.

 

[McTallshort]

obviously Graham Rowntree and Stuart LAncaster (who also played 7) need to bow down to your greater knowledge or just keep him playing there and doing well.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Christ you're obtuse.

Wearing 7 =/= being an openside.

Tom Wood played at 8 last season, does that make him an 8?
England are not currently playing a traditional blindside/openside flanker pairing.

Get it?... or is that too difficult for you to understand without inferring that I'm saying Robshaw should be dropped?