US Open Tennis Women's Final (AKA Serena's Temper Tantrum)

Discussion in 'All Other Sports' started by TRF_heineken, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    So did anyone else watch this over the weekend?

    I feel it's something we need to talk about as I think the umpire is getting the raw deal in the aftermath of what unfolded...
     
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  3. DumbAmerican

    DumbAmerican Senior Member

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    The question I have is how common it is for an umpire to warn about coaching? If it is true that hand signals are a common tactic and warnings are never assessed, then maybe she had a right to be angry. The stuff about not cheating and having a daughter was nonsense of course. Complete mental breakdown, but 99.9% of the time in championship level competitions you want the referees to error a bit towards swallowing the whistle verses calling to many small or unusual fouls.

    The crowd making Osaka cry after her first major was vintage NYC sports, though.

    It's interesting from a financial perspective whether Osaka choosing to identify as Japanese instead of American will earn her more or less in endorsement money. Certainly more in the short term. One major makes you hugely accomplished in Japan. Unless you are model good looking, you'd need a handful of majors to break into the top level of US endorsements. I wonder what the over/under point on number of majors it would take to make more money by identifying as American. The other question is if she can keep up popularity in Japan once the novelty wears off.
     
  4. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    The issue I have is that even if the coaching part of the debacle wasn't supposed to be a warning, it was just a warning, and Serena could have chosen to let it go and play on, it wouldn't have an effect on points being taken away from her. But instead she chose to break down, and basically antagonise the umpire. If I was him, I wouldn't have kept my cool like he did when she said those things to him.

    So what if he gave her a warning for coaching, it's a minor thing. She wouldn't even have gotten a fine after the match for this.

    But the thing is, and if you watched the match, Serena was actually being outmuscled by Osaka. Osaka's shots had way more power than Serena's. Even Osaka's serves were at times 10km/h faster than Serena's.

    Serena is such a bad loser, and couldn't even after the match bow out with grace. Instead she stole Osaka's moment and tried to make it all about her. It's a pity Serena didn't have the grace of Osaka.
     
  5. ncurd

    ncurd Senior Member

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    Lets be clear Tennis players loosing their rag is nothing new, McEnroe said about the senior circuit that he use to get paid not to get angry now they don't pay him if he doesn't,
    I think the commonality of what is allowed for men and what was allowed for Serena is a fair point. Sue Barker said she has seen men get away with a lot more than Serena did. So have quite a few players past & present.
    Whether any of it should be tolerated is an entirely diffrent matter. But you can't act diffrently because its the final or a womens game. Unfortunate once anyone starts to feel persecuted in a sport which tolerates and even generates revenue due to outbursts that is only going to escalate if you start trying to enforce the rules in a situation. Its the problem Football has gotten into loads of epople like the drama so they allow it but it led in the world cup to some ridiculous situations of a ref not being able to control the situation at all and just had players yelling at him for 5 mins straight.
    As to NYC fans in particular my experience with the Olympics is just Americans are just poor fans accross the board when it comes to international sports.
     
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  6. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    I get the whole issue between what men and women have said in the past, but then again this isn't Serena first outburst on the court either, and she was also reprimanded in the past.

    But I have a major issue with her playing the innocent card. The umpire wasn't there with a vendetta against her. She smashed her racket when she lost a rally against Osaka, and I have seen on numerous times in both men and women's matches where the umpire was given them a warning. So this is not uncommon.

    But in this match, it was strike 2. Then she just kept on abusing the umpire every chance she got and seemed to be an entitled spoilt little bitch, and the umpire tried to keep to himself as much as possible, but she just kept on and on and on. Which led to the 3rd strike for verbal abuse.
     
  7. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur Senior Member

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    Two things:
    1- Dont have the source at hand but i read (and am 99% sure it's accurate) that the overwhelming majority of warnings and penalties are issued to men. It's not even a contest actually.
    Using Serena's logic, all men should accuse the USTA and the US Open for discrimination.

    2- What is infuriating about this is that, overall, she is part of the privileged group. Have a 30th seeded unknown player do that in the first round and he'll be sent home and never invited again.
    So it's not that she's not benefited, it's that she is not as benefited as some other tennis players. Cry me a ******* river.


    This is not rocket science: there are rules, those rules were followed, she lost the plot. Grow the **** up. The fact she brought motherhood and sex into the equation is just delusional.
    If you don't like the rules, create your own tennis federation, organize another tournament with the rules you want and play on it.
     
  8. ncurd

    ncurd Senior Member

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    Oh I agree Serena does not cover herself in glory at all in any of this. The escalation of her behaviour is inexcusable from the point of being sanctioned the first time (coaching is supposedly common place getting caught is rare).

    I see this as all sides being poor the WTA & ITF (plus other bodies) have allowed this to go on for years. Lets be clear in overall context this has cost Serena nothing she has absolutely no reason to not act this way again.

    On men being sanctioned, you have to work out from a point how often they are offending and getting away with it compared to women. So no I don't have statistics I don't have stats (I doubt anyone does) I'm just reading what the commentators who played the game say.
     
  9. The_Blindside

    The_Blindside Senior Member

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    I watched the match live and Carlos Ramos was spot on all 3 violations. Serena has turned this into something it wasn’t.

    Her coach admitted afterwards that he was coaching her totally invalidated her argument that she shouldn’t have received the first warning. She then smashed her racquet which earned her a point penalty. She then demanded Ramos rescind the first warning for coaching, which he could not. Then she crossed the line by calling him a thief (questioning the integrity of an official) which is specifically prohibited as verbal abuse under the ITF rules, so got a third violation and game penalty.

    She should have let it go after she said to Carlos “don’t talk to me” and that would
    Probably have saved her the third warning and game penalty. But she then crossed the line and called him a thief. It was timing of her rant that was the problem- after being issued a point penalty and the crossing the line with the thief comment.
    Most other players (male or female) know not to take it further after receiving point penalty.

    Serena has turned this into a sexist thing when it was not in the context of this match. Carlos Ramos was spot penalising her on all 3 and acted with integrity. Serena did not.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  10. The_Blindside

    The_Blindside Senior Member

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    Serena has previous for this as well on the same court with different officials. See 2009 v Clijsters and 2011 final v Stosur.
     
  11. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    The umpire followed the rules and procedure and her coach admitted to coaching her... Serena just comes across as entitled ("I have a daughter"... Catch yourself on love) with a hugely inflated ego, she is well aware that her stature coupled with the fact that it was a man was in a position of power over her was enough to make this an issue of sexism even though there was absolutely no abuse of power.
     
  12. Which Tyler

    Which Tyler Senior Member

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    As far as i can tell, she was bang to rights in all 3 counts.
    Coaching happens all the time in tennis, and I'd you get busted, you get a violation. Complaining about it is akin to complaining about being busted for speeding and saying it shouldn't count. Complaining that you are jnocent because you didn't see it is as worthy an excuse as "I didn't know I was speeding". Outright lying doesn't help her BN case either.
    Racquet abuse happens all the time, and gets a violation all the time.
    Players remonstrate with umpires all the time, but I've never heard one accused of theft or cheating before. Actually, the only example of that I can think of in any sport resulted in Hartley being sent off and banned for 11 weeks. McEnroe accused them of blindness, and disagreed strongly with them, I don't recall him ever accusing them of cheating though - but he did receive many code violations.

    Tennis has rules that code violations stack, and each future is considered a escalation. So once busted, you reign it in. Serena acted the prima Donna who thought herself above the rules, and she chose a court ruled by a know disciplinarian.

    We should be talking about Osaka, but can't get past Serena
     
  13. The_Blindside

    The_Blindside Senior Member

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    The worst thing is how Serena manipulated this into something it wasn’t because she was being outplayed. She did the same in 2009 and 2011 both times she also lost. This time she really played the Victim card.

    Her coach Patrick Mouratoglou said he didn’t think she was looking at him at the time he signalled to her to move forward into the forecourt. It was a blatant lie as Serena clearly did see her coach signal to her as she said to Ramos after he gave her the first code violation “when he gives me the thumbs up...that means he’s encouraging me I know how it looks but I don’t cheat to win, I’d rather lose.. “

    Serena should issuing an apology to Ramos for calling him a liar and thief, not the other way round. But I doubt she ever will and the whole sorry episode will tarnish her legacy whether she breaks Court’s record of 24 or not.

    And of course it totally took the shine off of Osaka’s brilliant display and first slam. NY crowd are renound for being the worst and were booing her even though she didn’t do anything wrong. Ramos was not allowed at the trophy presentation and was presented with his trophy/gift back stage.
     
  14. DumbAmerican

    DumbAmerican Senior Member

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    Whether the referee was following the rule book is not 100% relevant. In every sport refs are supposed to call the most important moments and most important games a bit looser, especially when it comes to minor violations that are often tolerated. This isn't to excuse Serena's over the top reaction, but I don't think the referee covered himself in glory here. He'd have my backing 100%, except that this is the US Open Final.

    This seems to be a talking point, but I'd be surprised if it's the case in tennis. In most areas of life women get off easier for misbehavior from authority, especially if the authority is male.
    I do think it's the case that a small % of men can act insane towards authority, but come of as roguish or endearing in a Robin Hood sort of way. John McEnroe would be an example. That's probably where women get mad, but I don't think they understand that very few men have the charisma to pull off that act. The vast majority of men acting crazy and entitled towards authority come off as dicks just like women come off as bitchy.
     
  15. DumbAmerican

    DumbAmerican Senior Member

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    This is an excellent point that nobody wants to discuss.
     
  16. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    It's not that anyone doesn't want to discuss it, I think it's more to do about the person and her behaviour, whether she was seeded or unseeded seems irrelevant to me when it comes to a final.

    Let's be honest here, Osaka was just better than Serena, and Serena knew this and tried underhanded attempts to influence the referee and take the shine away from Osaka. That to me is more relevant with regards to the seeded/unseeded part of the discussion. To be so upstaged in a major final by an unseeded player speaks volumes about the character of Serena.
     
  17. DumbAmerican

    DumbAmerican Senior Member

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    In the media coverage lots of people are talking about Serena's relative lack of privilege based on her gender, race, or class background, and suggesting that this is relevant to how she's treated by umpires. Would a white son of a doctor be treated differently at the US Open? What's actually a way more relevant privilege is that she's the top player in the sport, and I hadn't heard anyone mention that until Mr. Cruz. She's treated differently than other athletes outside the top 10, and has been for literally decades now.
     
  18. DumbAmerican

    DumbAmerican Senior Member

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    The US Open is in Queens, close out to the Long Island suburbs if I'm correct. I'm not from the NYC area, but I do know a bit about the sports culture of the place. When I think of that area I think of Jets / Mets fans.





    I'd imagine the US Open crowd is a step up from the trashiest Jets / Mets fans, but Donald Trump grew up rich in Queens for a reference on what rich people there are like.
     
  19. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    Seriously??

    The democrats are getting their knickers in a twist about everything now.

    So no talking about her privilege about being one of the richest sportswomen in the world and how she gets what she wants wherever she goes? No mention of her being a diva and has a tendency to rant and use her daughter as a defence mechanism?

    And what about Osaka? What about the sacrifices her family and she had to make? No, the media won't publish that, She's Japanese, and she and the Umpire are in cahoots against Serena, and it was masterminded by a top White House official...
     
  20. The_Blindside

    The_Blindside Senior Member

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    It's totally relevant if you watched the incident play out. Ramos did nothing wrong and Serena was 100% in the wrong.

    According to ITF Grand Slam rules:

    • Verbal abuse is defined as a statement about an official, opponent, sponsor, spectator or other person that implies dishonesty or is derogatory, insulting or otherwise.
    • Abuse of racquets or equipment is defined as intentionally, dangerously and violently destroying or damaging racquets.
    • Players shall not receive coaching during a match (including the warm-up). Communications of any kind, audible or visible, between a player and a coach may be construed as coaching.


     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  21. Old Hooker

    Old Hooker Senior Member

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    They're so not. The best officials are empathetic, but consistent. Consistency is really all we can ask of an official. If one is a stickler, he should stickle at all times. If one is more laissez faire, he should always laissez. Calling the big moments or games differently will only lead to trouble.

    Glad to see the majority of posters are being sensible about this.

    Williams was totally out of line. Again. But some of those who have piggy backed this to inflame issues of racism or sexism are guilty of some pretty outrageous behaviour in my book. These are serious issues that shouldn't be abused by anyone of any viewpoint.

    Great example on 5 live the other night. One guest vociferously backing up Williams was American and male. The female presenter asked him which male players had been treated more leniently than Williams for similar behaviour and all he could cite were Connors and McEnroe which, as she rightly pointed out, aren't exactly relevant any more. None so offended as those who want to be.
     
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