What now for NH rugby?

[megaresp]

... Rugby is a great game and by and large ''the product'' is best played by the SH. It would not be unreasonable to see the USA entering the fray and buying into a Super franchise and competing in the rugby championship – I think they would find this far more appealing than anything the NH could offer at the moment. A sleeping giant awakes?

In conclusion (at last) it is tremendous to see the game reaching ever greater levels of skill, thrill and support. ...

I enjoyed reading your excellent, thoughtful post.

Thanks.

 

[barthelemy]

He's not being 'harsh' Cardassian, he is being utterly myopic and so is Oly.
With no change there will be no world cups in the northern hemisphere, ever.
Do you want a northern team to make the semi finals let alone win it?
It would be brilliant for rugby if they could but the miracle of 2003 is only getting further and further away.
Drop the loser of next years tournament in to lower tier, make it 5 nations the year after and make Italy and Georgia fight it out in the lower tier with Scotland joining them from time to time, and on current form, France as well.
Spain, Portugal and Romania could get serious sponsorship if this was the case.
The players will be tough enough if the format requires it because they sure seem to be soft now.
The 6 Nations event is holding back the International players in Europe.
Restructure and reschedule and make it the pre eminent tournament in the world that it was once upon a time pre-RC.
Now its a tawdry shambolic mechanism for holding back the traditional European powerhouses and all you ever hear trotted out when someone raises the issue of change is the same head in the sand diatribe that will keep European rugby in the dark for the next millennium.
Zero teams in the semi finals.
At a RWC held in the European back yard.
The hosts couldn't even get out of their pool...
Wales threatened and Ireland promised but only a plucky Scotland playing with two players who should have been banned against an Aussie team resting its two most influential players managed to come close.
France were on the receiving end of a world record defeat.
This RWC has been one long humiliating affair for the European tier one teams.
It doesn't have to be this way, if the 6 Nations is restructured to resemble the RC more closely then the outcomes will not be so obvious after the 1st weekend, the format will help players feel the path in a RWC and the intensity will heat up and bring more experience of merit to the players.
The 6 Nations is now an anachronism holding back the International development of European players who have genuine designs on lifting the RWC.
The situation is serious.

6N has nothing to do with the NH issues. You are talking about relegation and 2 group of teams, Four Nations does not have this and does perfectly well, the 6th Nation is an irrelevant argument in my perspective.

We could change the 6th nation at one point to integrate more team with relegation systems, why not, however, this is not the main issue of NH rugby.

The improvement of NH rugby (and we talk mainly about FR and ENG as I consider Wales, Ireland and Scotland doing well enough if compare population size) will happen through a structural reorganization of France and English championships (more Fracne than England btw), and why not the creation of an European Super Rugby championship. I'm posting a good post of snoopy dog about this matter :

1. Split the league into conferences. The British teams go into one conference (20 teams; the existing Pro 12, Premiership sides and two others strategicially placed eg Yorkshire), the French, Irish and Italian teams go into the other €urozone conference (20 teams; the Top 14, and Irish/Italian Pro 12 teams).

2. Split the conferences into mini divisions eg an Irish division, a Welsh division, a greater London division, a West Country division to preserve traditional local rivalries. Play each team in your division twice, home and away.

3. Play seven other teams in your own conference and seven other teams in the opposite conference home or away. That preserves the elements of the existing EPCR and gives a 20 game regular season.

4. Playoffs between the top 6 teams in each conference - a wildcard round, conference semi finals and conference finals. The European final takes place between the top team in each conference.

5. This gives a maximum of 24 games for each team, down from a maximum of 33 for English/Pro 12 sides or a whopping 38 for French teams as is currently the case. Fewer games should lead to less player fatigue, stronger teams week in week out and brings Europe closer to Super Rugby/Rugby Championship in terms of player workload. More rest means more time to work on upskilling. It's a better commercial product without radically altering the current structure. There also exists the opportunity to expand the league into other European and north American markets which the present structure doesn't permit.

http://www.therugbyforum.com/thread...-would-significantly-improve-European-nations

The main point is to have less domestic matches during the year, to have a stronger focus on the national team.

The main issue is France as they will need to change radically their union-clubs agreement where the union will have to start to contract the French international players in order to protect them (like Australia and NZ) and in order to compensate financially clubs much more than what they do today. It is an issue of money (french union is not really able to do this today, they will need a bit of extra money) and it is an issue of culture where it is difficult to find agreements of that sort in France.

There is also certainly some stuff to change in the rugby education of the young NH players but I think it will follow naturally if we implement the changes stated above.

Then we can still talk about changing the format, the length, the period of the year for the 6 nations, however, it does not seem to me a priority for now.

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First post, so hello. I know that this may sound a bit trite and holier than thou, but my first love is great rugby, and i don't get too myopic about whatever nation. I am an Englishman, living in Zimbabwe for the last 2 years, but have always supported Wales. Let me first of all exclaim without reservation how astonishingly brilliant this RWC has been. I previously thought of Lions tours as the apogee of the sport - no longer. The NH may fall behind the SH on the field: but take a bow RWC England: particularly the support of the fans: every stadium full, even for tier 2 vs tier 2 games. It has added immensely to the enjoyment of the games, you really get the sense of atmosphere, and the sport has served up the most incredible and implausible scripts and drama.

The superiority of Southern Hemisphere rugby though - in terms not only of results, but also style of play is unquestionable - with the AB's the pinnacle of the sport consistently - decade in, decade out. Generally it is the exception that proves the rule here - the AB's losing occasionally and the NH winning occasionally. So i don't really think we can question the verdict here, the only pertinent question is the perennial one of: why?

The NH are undoubtedly talented, they can be as fit, strong and fast, and have no reason to doubt their passion. The gulf isn't massive, but it has nevertheless always seemed undbridgeable (again we are not talking one off results here). We know that at international level it is so often small margins that win games, and with the SH, add up those tiny margins over the course of a game: handling, precision, decision making, cohesion, instinct, support play – and it becomes the winning margin. They enjoy no grand canyon of advantage in each area in isolation, but cumulatively it makes the difference.
But what gives them that small margin of superiority? Again I don't think you can suggest it is gaping and obvious reason – it is the manifestation of a number of small considerations.

Competition? Watching every 6 nations game vs every rugby championship game, and most super 15's v premiership: it is not hard to see the emerging picture of faster, flowing more skillful rugby in the SH. So playing on such a level so consistently is bound to have an effect.
Weather? - I think some very small allowance could be made here (I am sure it teems down in NZ, and I am sure it is as dry as a bone in the rugby stronghold of southern France – with regularity) – but possibly a little bit of slack here that adds to the ''pile''.

The way rugby is set up in each country? I think we have a larger slice of difference here. Who really understands the set up in each country – home unions alone let alone SH – I certainly don't, and I am on a voyage of research. It does seem though that the SH are set up in far more of a pyramid structure with everything leading to the national side. SANZAR I believe have the whip hand (possibly full control) in super 15's and rugby championship, so it all seems to dovetail together, whereas certainly for England and France, never the twain shall meet for the national side vs respective premierships. So we just have consistency in the SH right the way through, which I am sure accumulates a difference.

National Coaches? How much difference can they actually make once they have the squad that have come through all the other levels of coaching? I think in particular if you look at Argentina, Japan and Scotland – the answer is – or can be – a lot. All 3 of those teams have utterly transformed the way they play in very short periods of time, which suggests the right man can possibly overcome the deficiencies of the other aspects above. No small coincidence though that the 3 named are all SH. Similarly look what has happened with France – they are the most unflairy side you can imagine and their NH coach has taken them backwards at a rate of knots over the last few seasons.

Philosophy/physcology? Again I think we have another more substantial reason here – particularly when combined with National Coach above. Hourcade for Argentina especially has promoted a philosophy of attacking rugby to score tries to win, as opposed to focusing soley on scrums, lineouts and aggressive defence as Argentinian rugby was for years. He has transformed the side in double quick time, and with their ongoing involvement in rugby championship and now super 16's - it becomes a self -fulfilling prophecy. Italy should take note. With England in particular there just seems to be a physcological problem – which is maybe a national pshyce which clearly effects football as well. More afraid of losing than actually winning, a national and almost natural sense of reserve – we don't like to be flashy which I am sure – right from early years, stymies what nay have been great natural flair. Of course there are exceptions, but add this in with the other reasons and the case builds. It is particularly frustrating with England: by an astounding margin the most registered players in the world at the most rugby clubs in the world, with the biggest fanbase and most money.

Early Development. Having been involved in coaching up to U13, I think the RFU tries here, unfortunately in too many cases throughout the land, the age group coach gets more fixated on winning than anything else – good for short term instant gratification, bad for long term prospects. Best epitomised as follows: the guy that runs through everyone and scores every time is generally put at stand off – great for him – but no one else benefits. He should be on the wing so that the others at least get used to handling the ball – and knowing if they get it to big Johnny (running and passing as they go) he will score. Also from my experience way too much focus on grunting, wrestling and shoving as opposed to developing crucial ball handling skills and running into spaces. No doubt again many exceptions – but across the land we were certainly not singing from the same hymn sheet, which I suspect again is one of those little differences that can affect the end result. SH consistency right from the start.

Rugby is a great game and by and large ''the product'' is best played by the SH. It would not be unreasonable to see the USA entering the fray and buying into a Super franchise and competing in the rugby championship – I think they would find this far more appealing than anything the NH could offer at the moment. A sleeping giant awakes?

In conclusion (at last) it is tremendous to see the game reaching ever greater levels of skill, thrill and support. I never want to watch a 6 nations, Rugby championship or RWC where the results are too predictable and one nation is a shoe in to beat another – I don't want England and France to dominate the 6 nations as they once did, the emergence of Ireland and re-emergence of Wales has been fantastic for the tournament and I can't wait to see Scotland competing on equal terms as well (which I am sure they are now) – so come on Italy. Similarly the Pumas have transformed my anticipation of the RC. I hope we can see some dramatic developments in NH, as of course I'd love to see the Lions smash the AB's, perhaps it's possible, but I think addressing some of the root and branch areas would go a long way over the long term.
Can't wait for RWC Japan 2019, and will definitely plan to go.
Viva la Rugby.

Great post

 

[Kent]

Yes agreed. Mental skills may not be a deciding factor in many games and the normal gear shift can see the AB's through on most occasions, but consistent with their ''total'' rugby philosophy, if needed (like yesterday), it comes into play. Behind at half time with the rain teeming down, Hansen has them on the pitch acclimatising, running through some drills, and Mcaw gives the Gettysburg address - an immediate very slight plus to AB's as the Boks run out again for second half, Then the drop goal when down to 14, and the mental momentum begins to shift. Its just another thin veneer of advantage that adds up to a thicker slice.
Just love to see the Pumas beat the Aussies now, so that the Rugby firmament really is changed forever.

 

[TJAY]

Two tiers of northern hemisphere rugby nations. 6NP 6NC

Total 60 international games, home and away, 10 games for each nation.


6N Premiership

Eng, Fra, Ire, Ita, Sco, Wal



6N Championship

Can, Geo, Jap, Rom, Usa, Ger.... this is just an example.




Bottom 2 from 6NP relegated to 6NC
Top 2 from 6NC promoted to 6NP



3 points for win
1 point for draw
2 bonus points for 4 tries+





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Or just carry on as normal and stick our heads in the sand.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I've no problem with meritocratic entry to the top tier of European rugby but would the current 6 Nations vote for it? Dropping out of the 6 Nations could be financially ruinous. A compromise could be a 2 legged playoff between the bottom team in the 6 Nations and the top team in the ENC but it would have to be on a two yearly basis so that every team plays each other home and away.

There's merit to @TJAY's suggestion of a change to a bonus point structure. We need running rugby to be encouraged.

 

[TJAY]

Yes it would need to be a biannual tournament, but I can't see a problem wit that.

 

[Tony Manx]

Sorry wrong thread!

 

[Kent]

bonus points in 6N - very good idea - its a start, 4 tries+ and less than 7 points.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Two tiers of northern hemisphere rugby nations. 6NP 6NC

Total 60 international games, home and away, 10 games for each nation.


6N Premiership

Eng, Fra, Ire, Ita, Sco, Wal



6N Championship

Can, Geo, Jap, Rom, Usa, Ger.... this is just an example.




Bottom 2 from 6NP relegated to 6NC
Top 2 from 6NC promoted to 6NP



3 points for win
1 point for draw
2 bonus points for 4 tries+





------------------------------------------------------------------------



Or just carry on as normal and stick our heads in the sand.

Excellent tournament development idea.
This is exactly the kind of event that will sharpen and focus the players minds to the rigours of a RWC.
The NH players can get up for a one off game and beat anyone on their day but a protracted event like the RWC is often in the too hard basket for them.
Give them exposure to a more strident and difficult event and they will harden their mental set and resolve and dig in for longer.
NH DOES have the players but they don't have the tournament framework to practice within.

 

[TJAY]

Yes the more I think about it the more I like it.

The trouble with the 6N at present, from a fans perspective, after the first couple of rounds of games, 2-3 teams will be out of the running and have nothing to really play for, other than pride.

But with relegation snapping for those from the top tier, it will make every game important and keep our interest until the last week.

But above all it will bring 6 new nations to the table, and that can only be a good thing.

 

[barthelemy]

I do not think that relegation for 6N (and/or Bonus points) is the answer to NH rugby issues. I do not think that changing the format of 6 Nations is a priority for the NH rugby. At least on a french perspective.

As said previously, Four nations does not have relegation system and they are competitive.

The issue is on the domestic championships and the creation of a super rugby like tournament in Europe.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I do not think that relegation for 6N (and/or Bonus points) is the answer to NH rugby issues. I do not think that changing the format of 6 Nations is a priority for the NH rugby. At least on a french perspective.

The French need to change a lot more than the 6Nations, it's true but the only major international tournament you attend on an annual basis is poor preparation for a tournament as long and as attritional as the RWC.

As said previously, Four nations does not have relegation system and they are competitive.

Argentina were not competitive and they still struggle away from home, if there was a relegation from the RC then it would focus the minds and heighten the tension, not lessen it.

The issue is on the domestic championships and the creation of a super rugby like tournament in Europe.

That would certainly help matters but if they still only have the current 6nations format to rehearse within for a RWC then they will still come out underprepared.
The RC has gone up a gear and left the 6Nations in it's wake.
It's a distilling procedure.
The cream rise up through their clubs, to provincial representative level, then up again to Super Rugby level, then again to the white hot cauldron of home and away matches against the top sides in the world.
Take away the RC and its format and we would still produce great players like the Northern hemisphere does, but they wouldn't have the experience that comes from a long and gruelling annual international tournament at the very highest level. They would be a blunt instrument comparatively.
The RC allows the countries competing to sharpen their sword.
That sharpening of mind, fashioning tensile mental strength under pressure, has been borne out clearly by looking at the 4 semi finalists of this Northern Hemisphere Rugby World Cup.
If the format doesn't change to help the northern hemisphere players advance their growth through International experience then we will see the gap maintained and correspondingly the same result in Japan in 2019.
Two southern hemisphere teams in the Final.

 

[Colombia]

what are you telling me that Guy playing against teams like toulon every week doesn't have advantage over the guy playing zebre ?? its big fish in the small pond situation.. you could be the best in Georgian Championship but if you are never exposed to a higher level you will not improve much..

Identifying talent is a different discussion altogether that is outside the main point...

nop USA and England have the highest number of players in the world.

Argentina improved drastically because they were included in the 4N.

Do you watch rugby my friend?

Zebre are a good example, a team which is not good enough getting hammered by better teams. This is what you say improves teams? It really doesn't.

Argentina were good before the RC, they came 3rd in 2007 and nearly beat NZ in 2006.

 

[Kiwi_]

I've had the English asking me if they can join the RC so they can get better over here!! They've seen what it's turned the Argies into.

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Zebre are a good example, a team which is not good enough getting hammered by better teams. This is what you say improves teams? It really doesn't.

Argentina were good before the RC, they came 3rd in 2007 and nearly beat NZ in 2006.

That's kind of true, but they're far more consistent now.

 

[Bo Jandals]

I've had the English asking me if they can join the RC so they can get better over here!! They've seen what it's turned the Argies into.

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That's kind of true, but they're far more consistent now.

Most New Zealanders and rugby supporters in general would prefer if you stayed in the NH. Unfortanetaly our NH friends will deport you.

 

[Kiwi_]

Most New Zealanders and rugby supporters in general would prefer if you stayed in the NH. Unfortanetaly our NH friends will deport you.

Yeah, because my online personality matches my IRL one! Don't think I'd have front teeth mate.

 

[Bo Jandals]

Yeah, because my online personality matches my IRL one! Don't think I'd have front teeth mate.

I've got no idea what that meant? Please don't wear an AB jersey in England spouting crap because in an indirect way you are representing our country........you're an embarressment chief but I'm sure you mean well.

Happy travels

 

[Kiwi_]

I've got no idea what that meant? Please don't wear an AB jersey in England spouting crap because in an indirect way you are representing our country........you're an embarressment chief but I'm sure you mean well.

Happy travels

Wow, shut the hell up. At least I'm over here supporting the team while you sit at home with your dick in one hand and crappy mortgage in the other.

 

[Bo Jandals]

Wow, shut the hell up. At least I'm over here supporting the team while you sit at home with your dick in one hand and crappy mortgage in the other.

Classy man, very classy.......don't forget, don't wear an AB jersey.

Support? Hmmmmm

 

[Kiwi_]

Classy man, very classy.......don't forget, don't wear an AB jersey.

Support? Hmmmmm

Don't forget your bucket of chicken before the game starts..... BRO