What should be the H Cup qualification system?

[Feicarsinn]

Reads well to me. Now for the beurocrats to argue against it and delay it for 3 seasons.

As far as I remember the current system isn't up for review until the end of the 2014 season, so I suppose you're right in a sense.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

The best part is the certain boost the Amlin would get. Sure, italian teams wouldn't play the Heineken, but would play a much improved Amlin cup.

So I assume that it would be five pools of four, with the three best runners-up (or runner-ups?) going through? Personally, I think four pools of five, with clubs playing each other only once in the pool staes would be better (but less lucrative, so won't happen).

 

[Feicarsinn]

The best part is the certain boost the Amlin would get. Sure, italian teams wouldn't play the Heineken, but would play a much improved Amlin cup.

So I assume that it would be five pools of four, with the three best runners-up (or runner-ups?) going through? Personally, I think four pools of five, with clubs playing each other only once in the pool staes would be better (but less lucrative, so won't happen).

I doubt teams will take it any more seriously. It's still going to be the second competition, regardless of the format changes.

 

[psychic duck]

The English (Premiership Rugby) and French (LNR) governing bodies are expecting to face "fierce" opposition from the Celtic unions and Italy over these proposals.

So the proposed tournament format may need to be compromised to make a deal with the Celtic and Italian unions. It is hard to see Italy and Scotland giving up their guaranteed places easily.

The article I left a link to states:

Supporters of the current format believe each country should be represented in the Heineken Cup, which they feel is important for the growth of the game particularly in Italy, and that each country has the right to decide the qualification process.

I said my thoughts above on how a potential cup run in the Amlin could be as good for Treviso as being in the Heineken Cup and never realistically having a chance of getting to the quarter finals.

And the growth of the game argument is ridiculous. If Italy cared so much for the growth of the game themselves, then they would have played more than a grand total of 3 matches against Tier 2 sides in between the 2007 and 2011 World Cups, and they are the weakest Tier 1 side.

They don't help grow the game for teams below them, so why should teams above them help them grow?

 

[coonor]

Sounds good to me. To be honest I don't think Heineken Cup has developed the Italian clubs that greatly, same can probably be said for the Scottish team. In regards to the Italian teams they have got better by playing in the pro 12 and by playing in the amlin I think their potential growth is even greater.

 

[bushytop]

The proposals seem fair & with the power wielded by France & England I'd imagine they eventually pass.

Fear for the Welsh regions though, could well be lucky to get any of them qualified judging by the current state of affairs. The WRU seriously needs to stand the f**k up and take a far more active role... central contracts, player Exchange due to positional riches/needs etc.

Why do I think it'll take another regional collapse to force their hands.

 

[Teh Mite]

So the Celtic unions will oppose and... What?

PRL and the French equivalent have said they'll walk away, I doubt the Celts have a leg to stand on there.



Unless, Cotton and Andrew get their way regarding the franchises.

 

[SelimNiai]

Unless, Cotton and Andrew get their way regarding the franchises.

Ugh, dont say that.

Horrific thought

 

[psychic duck]

the Italian sides from Eccellenza could be ditched completely from Europe in these plans

with the third tier European competition, a much smaller, more cup style, tournament between the non Six Nations European nations

 

[j'nuh]

If France and England were to break away from the Heineken cup, would Ireland and Wales (who have no real reason to oppose a change to an 8-teams-from-each-league system, given that most years they'll get three teams into the top 8) be able to ditch Scotland and Italy and join in a new tournament? Or are they tied to Scotland and Italy interests somehow?

 

[Teh Mite]

They are tied onto the Celtic league, but the CL is not tied to the HEC. As that is one of the things the English & French want changing, the idea of Celts splitting to join an anglo-French league is unlikely.

 

[psychic duck]

The former RFU Chairman Martyn Thomas has said the Celtic Unions will fight tooth and nail to keep the H Cup the way it is, and also had a go at the English and French clubs as being greedy and arrogant. Here is the quote in full.

"The Celtic Unions have made a pact that this time they will not roll over in the face of any threats," he told The Rugby Paper. "If they keep their nerve when the going gets tough, the French and English clubs will be forced to back down.

"The Welsh, Irish and Scottish Union are determined not to give in. If the English and French clubs don't back down and walk away from the tournament, the Celts will say: 'That's a shame but if you don't want to play in the Heineken Cup as we know it and love it, tough'.


"It's all about brinkmanship. The top English and French clubs are power crazy. They are driven by a join belief that they are the people who command the most money from television for live coverage. That rather flies in the face of the fact that five of the last six teams represented in the last three finals did not come from England. Despite that, they have no regard for the revenue generated by Welsh, Irish and Scottish teams."


He continued: "Like most things in professional sport, this is about money and the English and French teams want more. They may dress it up in all sorts of ways but that's the reality. There will be some tough times ahead."

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2011-12/rugby/story/166705.html?CMP=OTC-RSS#

I really don't understand his point of view. The French and English teams irritation with the way it is seems justified to me.

 

[welshglory]

Sounds like he's trying to get back at the RFU by stirring the pot.

 

[Teh Mite]

Martyn Thomas is a cock. A cock with a Welsh name.

 

[Draggs]

Martyn Thomas is a cock. A cock with a Welsh name.

I try not to pay too much attention to the RFU, so when I heard about Martyn Thomas getting fired, it took me a minute to realise it wasn't our (ex-)fullback.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

I think the LNR teams prefer not to play H Cup than play it under its current format. I don't think it's just an empty threat. If the RFU take a stand as strong as the LNR, which they seem to do, they will manage to change it. Otherwise, the Heineken cup will become a cup with only Irish, Welsh, Scottish an Italian sides... something really unique...

 

[gaston le gaff]

As far as i'm concerned the Welsh Italiens and Scots can play their own cup the English French and Irish can play another, we all know where the competitive rugby will be played never have the above ever been near to winning the H Cup so let them play the Amlin together, until the laws are changed and everybody has to qualify for the H Cup it will never holds its real value.

 

[bushytop]

As far as i'm concerned the Welsh Italiens and Scots can play their own cup the English French and Irish can play another, we all know where the competitive rugby will be played never have the above ever been near to winning the H Cup so let them play the Amlin together, until the laws are changed and everybody has to qualify for the H Cup it will never holds its real value.

Wow!

 

[RedWhiteGreen]

My concern about a new format is how big the Third Tier Cup would be and who would be in it without diluting thin talent pools or adding bad teams - unless the entire Italian league is invited or something. Some change to the actual Heineken Cup format would be helpful, although it would be a shame in a way if some of the Six Nations countries were totally unrepresented.

 

[psychic duck]

My concern about a new format is how big the Third Tier Cup would be and who would be in it without diluting thin talent pools or adding bad teams - unless the entire Italian league is invited or something.

I don't understand what you're talking about.

A third competition for the Eastern European and Iberian clubs to play in with the top two to qualify for the Amlin Challenge Cup is a great idea.