When do we start praising England's coaches?

[mohamed_ali12]

If England beat South Africa next weekend, making it three wins on the bounce for Johnno's side, do we start to acknowledge a job well done?

After an historic win over Australia, the first since 2003 in Australia, and two consecutive AI wins for the first time since 2004 if I'm not mistaken, has Johnno reached the point where England fans can start praising him, and start to feel a little embarrassed by their lack of faith?

12 months ago, if someone told me that England would have accomplished either of these things, I would've told them straight away that there was not a chance in hell of a Martin Johnson England team beating Australia twice in a year. The rugby was turgid, 10 man stuff, with a lot of character but little skill or end product. The players were in their 30s (think Julian White, Simon Shaw) and most of them veterans of the England team merely for the fact that no England coach had been willing to take a chance and drop them. Now, the England team is flooded with young, exciting talent (Hartley, Cole, Wilson, Lawes, Attwood, Croft, Haskell, Youngs, Care, Flood, Ashton, Strettle, Banahan, Foden) and the rugby is the direct opposite of what we saw. Last year, Brian Smith and John Wells took an absolute roasting from every corner of the rugby community, and if we criticised them so much back then, should we not laud them now?

Forwards: Quick ball was a non-entity before the France game this year, whether that be as a consequence of Ben Youngs addition to the team, or the change in the engine room from Borthwick and Shaw to Palmer and Lawes. Either way, Wells has turned the forwards into an effective rucking machine, with a lot of good ball-carriers as well.

Scrums: Graham Rowntree's probably got away without much criticism, as England have always maintained a fairly good scrum. However, he's brought in Dan Cole, Davey Wilson, Matt Mullan and Paul Doran-Jones (not to mention Joe Marler recently) and handled them all very well, the first two having fitted seamlessly into international rugby.

Backs: Brian Smith was hammered last year, given that England were picking players like Dan Hipkiss, Ayoola Erinle and Shane Geraghty and centre (don't get me wrong, the last is a good player, but not at 12). We saw a few decent strike moves in the 2009 Six Nations, but come the Autumn England were simply awful, throwing turgid moves together 20 metres behind the gain-line. This summer and autumn, with the addition of Youngs, Flood, Ashton and Foden, England are playing right on the gainline with plenty of strike runners, and this Autumn we've seen plenty of (effective) planned moves from the top of lineouts or the base of scrums.

I'm not going to talk about defence, as i think Mike Ford has had that sorted for a while now.

I was one of the harshest critics of England last year, but now I'll admit to feeling a wee bit embarrassed about how everyone seemed to write England off. Maybe it's taken a while for Johnno to get into rugby management, as the job probably came a bit early for him, but he seems to have adapted well, recognised his mistakes (Borthwick, Wilkinson) and got England playing some lovely rugby. Perhaps it's a little bit early, maybe, as we've still got the World Champions to beat.

 

[iWin]

I think a win against SA would show that this is a little more than a fluke improvement.
I am pretty sure they have brought the team around and into being seriously competitive, so well played to them. They've really got their act together since the disastrous performances not so long ago.

I'm not saying they're there yet, but it's nice to see some improvement.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I agree completely, it's taken a while to get going, but bringing in the young blood really seems to have worked for the best.
Would anyone have believed that only 2 of the front 5 would be over 25? With the sub-prop in his early 20s too?
Our team was ancient, and now we're rivalling Australia for young-guns

I still think there's things to iron out (Johnson still showing his "loyalty" to older players, like including Payne, but demoting Borthwick to Saxons was a big start! I don't expect Payne to be named in the 6N squad now either, with Marler taking his place) - Still need to work on the centres (though Hape is getting better game by game, and Tindall/Banahan are solid if uninspiring)
England are a pleasure to watch atm, gone from one of the most boring to one of the most exciting teams in a year, it's mad. Bringing through Foden and Ashton at the end of the Six Nations seemed to be the catalyst, those two showing what a counterattacking/running team can do, and the rest of the team are performing better for it.

I'll hold my hands up and say i've regularly called for Johnsons head, but he does seem to be growing into the job now, and I hope he continues getting better.

 

[j-dawg]

I'm not going to be one of those guys who says pretends to have 'known all along...' but in honesty, i always thought something good would come out of the johnson reign. I didnt want rugby to get like football and after a few losses start calling for the managers head and whoever else is involved. There was a turbulent time before jonno 'came to power' when England didnt know what they were doing or what they wanted and I thought it would take a while to establish a clear direction, but i did think jonno was the man to do that. He'd been there before, he'd been a player, a captain, a leader and understood what works and what doesnt. He was under Clives glorious regime. I also feel he has a great deal of passion in what hes doing. So Yeah, he deserves all the praise he gets and I truly beleive england will reach new heights under the brow of jonno.

 

[gingergenius]

1) So far, Johnson's had 3 Autumns in the job. So far that's earned us just one victory against meaningful SH oppposition.

2) Yes, the side currently looks like it can achieve somewhere close to what our resources and history expect. Johnson and the other coaching staff deserve credit for how the side's playing.

3) I am in no way, shape or form embarrassed about slagging off Johnson's coaching in the past. The fact is, he's so cautious and conservative in his coaching style that its taken 3 years for him to find a gameplan and team that are good enough. We may not have had Ashton and Youngs for 3 years, but there have been plenty of other talented guys who have simply not been given the oppurtunity, either early enough or at all. Lawes is as good an example as any - it took Johnson an entire year to realise that Deacon was ****.

I personally am giving Johnson very little credit, because any coach worth his salt could have made something with the kind of talent we've got. The French and the Australians were in similar positions to us, with ageing teams, and they've both made progress so much quicker than we did.

I don't think I'll ever be sorry for criticising a coach who unashamedly selects players like Deacon, Worsley, Goode, Noon, Erinle and Banahan when there are guys with genuine talent being ignored.

So while I've got nothing major to criticise England about at the moment, it's not a vindication of Johnson's methods of the past 3 years in which we've not been building for anything, simply going round in circles. This team only started being built against France this year. Almost 3 years into Johnson's tenure.

 

[Peat]

I think we should also remember that the injury list last year was so ridiculous that Tim Payne was actually genuinely about the best option.

This year it's been very kind.

Credit at the end of the AIs. The coaches have done a turn around I didn't imagine possible, they've taken a lot of gambles and they've worked out mostly.

There's a bit of talk about how they've changed with the rules intepretations. Other teams worked ok with them, not much of an excuse, but its been a hell of a change. I think there's still some significant mileage to come, but yes - looks like credit is due.

 

[eot345]

1) So far, Johnson's had 3 Autumns in the job. So far that's earned us just one victory against meaningful SH oppposition.

2) Yes, the side currently looks like it can achieve somewhere close to what our resources and history expect. Johnson and the other coaching staff deserve credit for how the side's playing.

3) I am in no way, shape or form embarrassed about slagging off Johnson's coaching in the past. The fact is, he's so cautious and conservative in his coaching style that its taken 3 years for him to find a gameplan and team that are good enough. We may not have had Ashton and Youngs for 3 years, but there have been plenty of other talented guys who have simply not been given the oppurtunity, either early enough or at all. Lawes is as good an example as any - it took Johnson an entire year to realise that Deacon was ****.

I personally am giving Johnson very little credit, because any coach worth his salt could have made something with the kind of talent we've got. The French and the Australians were in similar positions to us, with ageing teams, and they've both made progress so much quicker than we did.

I don't think I'll ever be sorry for criticising a coach who unashamedly selects players like Deacon, Worsley, Goode, Noon, Erinle and Banahan when there are guys with genuine talent being ignored.

So while I've got nothing major to criticise England about at the moment, it's not a vindication of Johnson's methods of the past 3 years in which we've not been building for anything, simply going round in circles. This team only started being built against France this year. Almost 3 years into Johnson's tenure.

Bannhan is not **** he has scored 5 trys in 6 appearences for england

 

[Teh Mite]

HMS Banahan has scored 5 tries against minnow opposition and IS VERY ****.