Why isn't Rugby league much bigger in Ireland? (or Wales and Scotland)

[RoosTah]

People who run rugby league are clueless.

The problem with an international calendar is that simply put there aren't enough teams of the requisite quality. There are always end of season internationals but unless the number of games is cut (which I am all for) there can't be an international programme mid-season. There isn't the talent pool for players to disappear for weeks at a time on international duty.

Meanwhile, the London debate again... nrgh. They've been hopeless for 10 years and longer. They've been afforded so many chances and opportunities to get it right and still get crowds of 2000. They need to be cut adrift - it is as simple as this: London doesn't care about Super League. We need to grow the game in the areas of strength and forget wanton expansionism for the foreseeable future.

Why is it that London has such a hard time getting into Rugby League Dan? I mean, it's not exactly a small market... surely there's scope there for people to support a team. Bloody hell, if Melbourne - with only 4 million people - can support a Rugby League team whilst also hosting 7 AFL teams, 2 soccer teams and a Super Rugby side, then surely London's 20 million+ population can get behind a Rugby League team.

Clearly the ESL is doing something wrong, because there's no way they could possibly be more hostile to League than Melbourne once was.

 

[ratsapprentice]

They aren't hostile towards it.

They simply have no ****ing idea it exists - literally... not "they have a feeble understanding of it" but "there are two types of rugby?" or "what's rugby?".

Srsly.

 

[RoosTah]

They aren't hostile towards it.

They simply have no ****ing idea it exists - literally... not "they have a feeble understanding of it" but "there are two types of rugby?" or "what's rugby?".

Srsly.

Wow... Now that is a serious failure of marketing and they need to do something about it right away.

I don't care what anyone says, a city the size of London has the capacity to support a Rugby League team. Perhaps the ESL should come down to Sydney and have a talk to the new NRL management; those guys (run by an Englishman in David Smith) actually have a clue what they're doing.

In fact, the NRL is now a significantly more strategically astute and powerful corporate entity than Union here, which ironically seems to have lacked League's business acumen.

 

[Saints1]

They aren't hostile towards it.

They simply have no ****ing idea it exists - literally... not "they have a feeble understanding of it" but "there are two types of rugby?" or "what's rugby?".

Srsly.

This.

This is exactly the reason. And they've had the best part of 20 years to get it right.

 

[RoosTah]

This.

This is exactly the reason. And they've had the best part of 20 years to get it right.

Seriously Dan, call the ESL to send a delegation down here to study the NRL. If the NRL can get League working in a city like Melbourne, then I'm sure they'd be able to help get it averaging more than 2k in a megacity like London.

 

[Saints1]

It's way too late for them. The team nearly went bust late last year and are now made up of kids on loan from other teams with the occasional permanent signing (such as Scott Moore) and they lost their first game 64-10 against Widnes who are probably not going to even make the playoffs. If someone click against them in the coming months I reckon we could get Super League's first ever three figure scoreline.

Let them go - if they rebuild well then see what can be done differently but London Broncos are as dead as a doormat.

 

[lynam1104]

Wow... Now that is a serious failure of marketing and they need to do something about it right away.

I don't care what anyone says, a city the size of London has the capacity to support a Rugby League team. Perhaps the ESL should come down to Sydney and have a talk to the new NRL management; those guys (run by an Englishman in David Smith) actually have a clue what they're doing.

In fact, the NRL is now a significantly more strategically astute and powerful corporate entity than Union here, which ironically seems to have lacked League's business acumen.

The NRL is a commercial giant, they have so much advertising and sponsorship very very impressive considering the number of sports in Oz.

 

[RoosTah]

The NRL is a commercial giant, they have so much advertising and sponsorship very very impressive considering the number of sports in Oz.

It's huge, there's no doubt about it, but that's not the only reason Melbourne have been successful; it also helps that they have been a consistently strong and premiership winning team since entering. Linking them with strong academies in Qld was a masterstroke by the NRL, enabling them a steady stream of talented players.

That's not all about money either, so the fact that the Broncos get hammered by 60 points on a regular basis just screams poor strategy and half-baked execution. The ESL should have tried to make the Broncos a top 4 side, with strong juniors links to the North, subsidies and exemptions. It's not rocket science; if you want a new sport to be a hit in a new area, you can't just give them a pack of amateurs.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think you're underestimating how dominant soccer is - it's like a black hole for other sports.

 

[RoosTah]

It's way too late for them. The team nearly went bust late last year and are now made up of kids on loan from other teams with the occasional permanent signing (such as Scott Moore) and they lost their first game 64-10 against Widnes who are probably not going to even make the playoffs. If someone click against them in the coming months I reckon we could get Super League's first ever three figure scoreline.

Let them go - if they rebuild well then see what can be done differently but London Broncos are as dead as a doormat.

Maybe they could dump them and the start a new franchise that is more regional in London - set it up so you can start maybe 2 or 3 teams there in the future. A city of that size could really support 5 teams (one for each region) pretty well if done properly.

I don't know enough about the demographics of the city, but for instance, why couldn't you start with a "West London RLFC" (region chosen totally arbitrarily btw) Team that has strong links to the best academies and encourage the best coaches to go down there and then build interest in that one region?

 

[RoosTah]

I think you're underestimating how dominant soccer is - it's like a black hole for other sports.

They said that about Australian Football in Melbourne... and believe me that's pretty bloody dominant down there.

 

[Saints1]

Honestly mate, I don't think the city even has room for one team at the moment. The interest isn't there.

 

[RoosTah]

Honestly mate, I don't think the city even has room for one team at the moment. The interest isn't there.

Really? In a city of where the population for the Greater Metro region is around 21 million, you don't think Rugby League is capable of convincing less than 1 per cent (around 200k) of getting into the game? Surely if you can do it in Melbourne - a city that remains actively hostile to Rugby League - you can do it in London. You just have to build the interest buy actively and intelligently selling the product.

Just why is it the League has such a hard time breaking into the English psyche beyond the M62 corridor Dan? Surely the game should have appeal for your average Englishman if only he watched it. It's a hell of a sport, and you have the only other fully pro league in the world there.

 

[ratsapprentice]

To be frank I think you're being quite naive.

In 2011 the AFL and NRL's combined revenue was roughly £270million
In 2010 the EPL's revenue was over £2billion

England's sporting appetite is almost totally saturated by soccer.

I guess it's hard for someone who has grown up in a country where League, AFL, Cricket and to a lesser extent, Union all have a large presence in the nation's consciousness.

I'll share my personal experiences:
I have lived in London my entire life, as such I did not know that Rugby even existed until I was 9 years old and I went to a school in Hertfordshire.
It wasn't until I was about 17-18 that I actually became aware that Rugby League even existed.

You would be forgiven for thinking that the country didn't play either code unless you go to areas where the game is actively played.

 

[RoosTah]

To be frank I think you're being quite naive.

In 2011 the AFL and NRL's combined revenue was roughly £270million
In 2010 the EPL's revenue was over £2billion

England's sporting appetite is almost totally saturated by soccer.

I guess it's hard for someone who has grown up in a country where League, AFL, Cricket and to a lesser extent, Union all have a large presence in the nation's consciousness.

I'll share my personal experiences:
I have lived in London my entire life, as such I did not know that Rugby even existed until I was 9 years old and I went to a school in Hertfordshire.
It wasn't until I was about 17-18 that I actually became aware that Rugby League even existed.

That's simple reflection of the larger population size and more internationalised nature of the game. Put it this way, if Aus had 60 million people and operated with a similar heirarchy of sports (hypothetically with the AFL on top), then logically the revenue would be nearing A$3 billion annually - still less because the games are local, but it would be in an analogous ball park.

On your 'not in the national psyche point' - growing up soccer was a game only on the fringe of society derided as effectively a game for social outcasts and weaklings. It's relative size to the NRL and AFL is even smaller than the relative size of the AFL to the EPL. Yet it has managed to gain a foothold. So why can't league in England?

I guess I have trouble believing that a people can have their sporting appetite satisfied almost entirely by a sport like soccer when there are other options available...

 

[ratsapprentice]

Those figures I posted earlier for revenue are slightly outdated, but going by these: http://www.smh.com.au/data-point/afl-leaves-other-codes-in-the-dust-20130326-2grkp.html and these http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22766638
If Australia had the same population as England then it would be be worth roughly half what the EPL is.

The hierarchy of the sports is exactly what I'm getting at - Football is totally dominant.
Imagine the AFL was double the size - with that share of the market being at the expense of other sports.

In Aus there is an appetite for multiple sports - there simply isn't here.
England's sporting landscape begins and ends with football in the same way that Cricket does in India.


There are clearly issues with the RFL - but even if it was perfect it would still be extremely difficult to grow the game.

 

[RoosTah]

Those figures I posted earlier for revenue are slightly outdated, but going by these: http://www.smh.com.au/data-point/afl-leaves-other-codes-in-the-dust-20130326-2grkp.html and these http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22766638
If Australia had the same population as England then it would be be worth roughly half what the EPL is.

The hierarchy of the sports is exactly what I'm getting at - Football is totally dominant.
Imagine the AFL was double the size - with that share of the market being at the expense of other sports.

In Aus there is an appetite for multiple sports - there simply isn't here.
England's sporting landscape begins and ends with football in the same way that Cricket does in India.


There are clearly issues with the RFL - but even if it was perfect it would still be extremely difficult to grow the game.

Fair enough I suppose. To be fair though, Union is pretty massive in the UK compared to Australia - you have something like 12 times as many players than we do and vastly greater resources, so Union can't be doing too badly in spite of soccer's dominance.

I guess I figure that if Union can build itself like it has, League ought to be able to.

 

[FCBayernDM]

If Australia had the same population as England then it would be be worth roughly half what the EPL is. The hierarchy of the sports is exactly what I'm getting at - Football is totally dominant. Imagine the AFL was double the size - with that share of the market being at the expense of other sports. In Aus there is an appetite for multiple sports - there simply isn't here. England's sporting landscape begins and ends with football in the same way that Cricket does in India. There are clearly issues with the RFL - but even if it was perfect it would still be extremely difficult to grow the game.

Don't forget how much of the EPL's revenue comes from overseas sources like the US and Asia.

 

[RoosTah]

Don't forget how much of the EPL's revenue comes from overseas sources like the US and Asia.

This is true - it has a massive audience well beyond England. Even still it's revenue base is only a third of the NFL, whose revenue last year was over $US10 billion.

 

[ratsapprentice]

So?

That money then goes towards their continued dominance of the English sporting landscape - it doesn't matter where it's coming from - it's going back into the EPL.