Why the Wallabies and All Blacks Will Rip the Boks to Pieces

[dan-the-man]

I think what Stormer2011 is trying to say is that the Boks will park the bus again.....

RWc is won on defence...not by/with attack...that is why the Ab wont win this WC.... i don't mind if they lose.... WC do not say you the best in the world.... but i think the AB deserve a WC for the players, with guys liek McCaw and Carter.....

RWC USED TO be won on defence, but the laws have changed greatly recently and as is plain to see, they favour the attacking team. Playing defensive rugby is the exact mentality that is going to get the Boks ripped to pieces. And let's just take a player-to-player comparison.

Compare JP Pietersen to Digby Ioane. Ioane has extreme speed and constantly shrugs off defenders, setting up tries and scoring a few himself. Prior to the last few weeks of the comp, JP couldn't break a tackle to save his life. 98% of his career tries have been finishes that anyone could do. Extremely average player.

Compare Rene Ranger or Drew Mitchell with Bryan Habana who hasn't been good in the slightest since 2007. He is a walking error and has lost considerable pace over the years. Compare this to guys like Ranger and Mitchell who make things happen everytime they touch the ball.

Compare Quade Cooper with Morne Steyn. Morne Steyn will never break a tackle in his life and he kicks away all his teams possession. Morne makes it harder for a team to win, because I don't know how you can score points without the ball apart from praying that they concede a penalty on attack. Quade Cooper runs with the ball and adds touches of genius and sets up so many tries for his team and gets the backline working.

Compare Will Genia to Fourie du Preez. du Preez has box-kicked the Bulls right out of Super Rugby glory. du Preez's box-kicking is one of the main reasons the Bulls have done so badly this year. Go back and watch any game, and take note of what happens as a result of a du Preez box kick. Then there is Genia who is an absolute genius that breaks tackles and sets up tries.

Compare Nathan Sharpe to Bakkies Botha. Botha has been in dreadful form and has no intention of changing his fowl play. Sharpe is the best lock in the world ATM.

Compare Mealamu to Smit.......Should I even say anything about this one?

Compare Crockett, the Franks brothers or Ben Robinson to Steenkamp or the Beast.

Compare Read to Spies.

How the hell do any of you think SA can win anything?

 

[madflyhalf]

Its funny because around this time last year, many were saying that that the Wallabies would be the ones getting ripped to pieces (or something like that) and now look. Early last year the Wallabies looked woeful in their tests, their young guns were still finding their feet, Australian rugby fans were begining to question Robbie Deans coaching and their Super franchises were indicating that Australian rugby was struggling. Come tri-nations time, the Wallabies were a real force.

Dont always follow the arrows.

I'm not sure of those things!

S14 table, showed that, while the Force struggled on 13th position, the Waratahs advanced to the semifinal, and the Brumbies and the Reds were still in contest for 2 spots in the playoffs until the last two rounds; the Reds lost to the Hurricanes in round 13 and they were kicked out, but the Brumbies kept on, playing the Crusaders in the very last round, in a do or die match!

Here the final Table

It's been the best season for Australian Franchises since the Super 14 began (and probably since 2004)!


About the test match level...
In June the Wallabies played with a lot of experiment, most of all in the front row, with uncapped, young and inexperienced players, with a couple of heavy injuries there (TPN, Alexander, Robinson for a while, Moore).

In these 3 matches, they beat Ireland in a well fought match, they absolutely outplayed England in the first match despite a crashing scrum (29-13, final result never in threat), and finally they lost by 1 point due to a one of those day at the tee by Giteau!


You're right about concerns the Australian had on Robbie Deans. They had them.
But, IMO, in that period they were totally wrong!


And in 2010 Australia has been the only side in the World to beat the All Blacks.

 

[Aedaphon]

This is why the Wallabies and All Blacks will rip the Boks to shreds:

Injured players unavailable for selection for the away leg of Tri-Nations:
Duane Vermeulen (knee), Fourie du Preez (knee), Schalk Burger (thumb), Victor Matfield (calf and neck), Frans Steyn (ankle and back), Jaque Fourie (groin), Jean de Villiers (groin), BJ Botha (knee), Juan Smith (Achilles), Willem Alberts (shoulder), Bismarck du Plessis (shoulder), Andries Bekker (shoulder, groin and ankle), Jannie du Plessis (knee), Francois Louw (clavicle), Gurthrö Steenkamp (forearm), Francois Hougaard (ankle), Butch James (knee), JP Pietersen (back), Tendai Mtawarira (hamstring), Bryan Habana (shoulder), Bakkies Botha (knee).

While I would definitely have put my money on both the ABs and the Wallabies before, I'm pretty certain SA won't be able to compete without so many key players. Even my doubt that Australia would be able to adequately unleash their backs against an RSA scrum that's still pretty dominant are pretty much gone... Doesn't look like South Africa will have all that much of a pack left (for at least the first 2 Tri-Nations matches)

 

[Sam Owen]

I'm not sure of those things!

S14 table, showed that, while the Force struggled on 13th position, the Waratahs advanced to the semifinal, and the Brumbies and the Reds were still in contest for 2 spots in the playoffs until the last two rounds; the Reds lost to the Hurricanes in round 13 and they were kicked out, but the Brumbies kept on, playing the Crusaders in the very last round, in a do or die match!

Here the final Table

It's been the best season for Australian Franchises since the Super 14 began (and probably since 2004)!


About the test match level...
In June the Wallabies played with a lot of experiment, most of all in the front row, with uncapped, young and inexperienced players, with a couple of heavy injuries there (TPN, Alexander, Robinson for a while, Moore).

In these 3 matches, they beat Ireland in a well fought match, they absolutely outplayed England in the first match despite a crashing scrum (29-13, final result never in threat), and finally they lost by 1 point due to a one of those day at the tee by Giteau!


You're right about concerns the Australian had on Robbie Deans. They had them.
But, IMO, in that period they were totally wrong!


And in 2010 Australia has been the only side in the World to beat the All Blacks.

On the subject of the franchises, I stand corrected.

Early last year I remember the Wallies winning their games against Ireland and England. However many were saying that the Wallabies would be the lesser team in the up-coming tri-nations. Despite Australian teams (to my suprise) doing considerably well in the 2010 Super 14, many do not realise this because they wernt in the final but I now see they did go well and NZ teams were probably the lesser but just like the point I was trying to make, S14 standings doesnt always mean a countries representative team will be the superior come game time.

Look at NZ Teams on that S14 table they were forgettable but come International test time, NZ were the best.

Thank you for providing that table as it futher proves my intial point about not always following the arrows. I was wrong about Australian franchises struggling, clearly not the case for 2010.

I still feel their tests against England and Ireland they were a bit woeful but they started to improve from there, didnt they. The Wallaby side that finished 2010 would have beaten the (IMO woeful) Wallabies that started 2010.

In those examples I was trying to point out the adversities that the Wallies went through and credit to them they came through above manys expectations.

How does this relate to this thread?...well its happening to the 'Boks now, people (with reason) begining to think that they would be the lesser team in this years tri-nations. Could-be but they wont get thrashed over and over IMO.

 

[dan-the-man]

On the subject of the franchises, I stand corrected.

Early last year I remember the Wallies winning their games against Ireland and England. However many were saying that the Wallabies would be the lesser team in the up-coming tri-nations. Despite Australian teams (to my suprise) doing considerably well in the 2010 Super 14, many do not realise this because they wernt in the final but I now see they did go well and NZ teams were probably the lesser but just like the point I was trying to make, S14 standings doesnt always mean a countries representative team will be the superior come game time.

Look at NZ Teams on that S14 table they were forgettable but come International test time, NZ were the best.

Thank you for providing that table as it futher proves my intial point about not always following the arrows. I was wrong about Australian franchises struggling, clearly not the case for 2010.

I still feel their tests against England and Ireland they were a bit woeful but they started to improve from there, didnt they. The Wallaby side that finished 2010 would have beaten the (IMO woeful) Wallabies that started 2010.

In those examples I was trying to point out the adversities that the Wallies went through and credit to them they came through above manys expectations.

How does this relate to this thread?...well its happening to the 'Boks now, people (with reason) begining to think that they would be the lesser team in this years tri-nations. Could-be but they wont get thrashed over and over IMO.

Dude I totally get what you're trying to say, but you're wrong. I don't think the Boks are gonna get raped because of the SA teams' performances in this years S15. I think the Boks are gonna get raoed because of the performances of the SA PLAYERS in this year's S15. Fourie du Preez is the best example. He is THE main reason the Bulls have done so poorly this year. He starves the Bulls of possession by box-kicking the ball right down the opposition fullback's throat from almost every ruck. With du Preez and Steyn, the Bulls had to somehow try win games without possession. Take the game in Durban when the Bulls beat the Sharks. The Sharks probably set a handling error record in that game (by the way, that's another thing. SA teams' handling is like watching a bunch of retards try to hump a door-knob.) and yet the Bulls still only just won. If they had kept ball in hand, The Bulls would've got about 50 or 60 points in that game.

Not to mention we don't have any quality wings, apart from maybe Gio Aplon. Pietersen and Habana wouldn't even be the All Blacks' third-string wingers. Our fly-halves are all a joke. You know it's sad when Peter Grant is your best fly-half. Pierre Spies will still get selected despite never playing well in a Springbok jersey. Matfield and Botha are both playing simply pathetic rugby and don't deserve to be starting - IMO, Bakkies should no longer be allowed to play proffessional rugby. I wouldn't even include him in my Vodacom Cup side.

Then the front-row will most probably be 1. Steenkamp 2. Smit 3. Jannie du Plessis (This is for the WC ofcourse, once all these "injuries" are healed). Now, let's analyze these guys. Steenkamp is only good in open play. His defense and scrummaging are both **** poor, but South Africans seem to have a fetish for props that get the occasional try. Then, Smit takes the reigns at hooker. He is useless at every aspect of the game of rugby, and anyone who really watches properly will agree that even his "leadership" has gone down the toilet. And you have a walking yellow-card in Jannie du Plessis, whom Wyat Crockett made look about as physical as a Tellytubbie in the scrum.

I'd much rather see CJ van der Linde at loosehead and BJ Botha at tighthead. Both are amongst the best props in world rugby yet the don't start for us because Steenkamp can scor the odd try and because du Plessis is an "in-your-face" player (and that's just another way of saying penalty machine). Hookers like Schalk Brits, Gary Botha and Adriaan Strauss are over-looked for the simple fact that South Africans see giving away lots of penalties as having a high work-rate. Why else would guys like Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, Flip van der Merwe, Bakkies Botha, Alistair Hargreaves, Deon Steggmann and Keegan Daniel gotten so far? South African's have a pathetic mentality that lots of penalties = high work rate and initimidating physical prwsence. Despite hookers like Brits, Botha and Strauss consistently putting in better all-round performances then Bismarck du Plessis, Bissie is still looked at as SA's best hooker (and by some extremists, even the world's best) because he's an "in-your-face" player. His occasional ruck steal suddenly negates the fact that he concedes about 6 points per game, that his line-out throws are pathetic, that he can't scrum properly and that he so frequently loses the ball in contact.

It's these it's these attitudes that manifest themselves when defining a player in South Africa that is the single most major down-fall in South African rugby. The wrong players continuously get selected and most of South Africa simply nods along, being hypnotised by words like "work-rate" and "physicality", despite the same Bok team that will probably represent us at the WC losing 5 out of 6 Tri-Nations games last year. If all our players were as good as the rest of South Africa said they are, the Boks would win every game 50 - 0, even against the All Blacks. People really need to look at their perception of what defines a good player. IMO, the common South African's perception is incorrect.

 

[Sam Owen]

Dude I totally get what you're trying to say, but you're wrong. I don't think the Boks are gonna get raped because of the SA teams' performances in this years S15.

I wasnt talking to you but anyway...ok then you say Im wrong and I never said you were wrong but I guess you must know it all lol. Maybe they shouldnt play then aye Dan?...because you already told us whats going to happen. Look mate if Im wrong Id say so, you on the other hand cant do that, its sad.

Its funny because the games havent been played yet and already you are saying that the 'Boks will be ripped to pieces. THEN in your first paragraph of your opening post for this thread you talk about what Queensland and NZ teams are doing right in this years S15. You use that as an example as to why they will 'rip the Boks to pieces', but look at your sentence above in bold lol...crack up.

 

[dan-the-man]

I wasnt talking to you but anyway...ok then you say Im wrong and I never said you were wrong but I guess you must know it all lol. Maybe they shouldnt play then aye Dan?...because you already told us whats going to happen. Look mate if Im wrong Id say so, you on the other hand cant do that, its sad.

Its funny because the games havent been played yet and already you are saying that the 'Boks will be ripped to pieces. THEN in your first paragraph of your opening post for this thread you talk about what Queensland and NZ teams are doing right in this years S15. You use that as an example as to why they will 'rip the Boks to pieces', but look at your sentence above in bold lol...crack up.

I look at the individual players in those teams, not the overall final standings of those teams. Those players on general are running and keeping the ball in hand, where our players are all kicking the ball away. Just watch the Tri-Nations and if South Africa verse Aus or NZ in the WC...that is if the Boks even make it past the quaters

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I look at the individual players in those teams, not the overall final standings of those teams. Those players on general are running and keeping the ball in hand, where our players are all kicking the ball away. Just watch the Tri-Nations and if South Africa verse Aus or NZ in the WC...that is if the Boks even make it past the quaters

Not to through a spanner in the works but you have realized that the two most successful teams this year have a lot of their success thanks to a smart kicking game? Quade Cooper has made the most kicks of any 10 this year and Carter isn't too far behind though he has missed a couple of games. Against the Stormers both these teams won (Crusaders twice) because they pinned the Stormers in their 22 and defended well against the Stormers' running the ball IE took the Stormers strength in defense and turned it around in that they didn't run the ball in close but made the Stormers do the running and rather played for territory and sent the ball wide when they were running. The Crusaders in the semi didn't kick the ball out but sent it down field and made the Stormers run and kept the pressure up through good defense in favourable territory.

That's the Springbok game! Thing is we've been inaccurate at it (both kicking and defense) the last 12 months. Alot of it due to form slumps (Matfield at the line-out, Steyn at his kicking and everyone else at defense, also the chases haven't as spot on but this si mainly due to the kicks being too far or too close ITO the up-and-unders and Steyn has been abd with general kicking- also we have been bad at covering quick line-outs which nullify our gameplan) and injury to key players that make it work for us. I think you don't always see the finer aspects of things.

 

[dan-the-man]

Not to through a spanner in the works but you have realized that the two most successful teams this year have a lot of their success thanks to a smart kicking game? Quade Cooper has made the most kicks of any 10 this year and Carter isn't too far behind though he has missed a couple of games. Against the Stormers both these teams won (Crusaders twice) because they pinned the Stormers in their 22 and defended well against the Stormers' running the ball IE took the Stormers strength in defense and turned it around in that they didn't run the ball in close but made the Stormers do the running and rather played for territory and sent the ball wide when they were running. The Crusaders in the semi didn't kick the ball out but sent it down field and made the Stormers run and kept the pressure up through good defense in favourable territory.

That's the Springbok game! Thing is we've been inaccurate at it (both kicking and defense) the last 12 months. Alot of it due to form slumps (Matfield at the line-out, Steyn at his kicking and everyone else at defense, also the chases haven't as spot on but this si mainly due to the kicks being too far or too close ITO the up-and-unders and Steyn has been abd with general kicking- also we have been bad at covering quick line-outs which nullify our gameplan) and injury to key players that make it work for us. I think you don't always see the finer aspects of things.

The Crusaders still ran a hell of a lot more then any South African team, and the Reds don't base their game plan around kicking. The kicks Quade makes aren't retarded up-and-unders that any idiot can do, he kicks those low ones for the corners and gains territory

 

[Darwin]

Not to through a spanner in the works but you have realized that the two most successful teams this year have a lot of their success thanks to a smart kicking game? Quade Cooper has made the most kicks of any 10 this year and Carter isn't too far behind though he has missed a couple of games. Against the Stormers both these teams won (Crusaders twice) because they pinned the Stormers in their 22 and defended well against the Stormers' running the ball IE took the Stormers strength in defense and turned it around in that they didn't run the ball in close but made the Stormers do the running and rather played for territory and sent the ball wide when they were running. The Crusaders in the semi didn't kick the ball out but sent it down field and made the Stormers run and kept the pressure up through good defense in favourable territory.

That's the Springbok game! Thing is we've been inaccurate at it (both kicking and defense) the last 12 months. Alot of it due to form slumps (Matfield at the line-out, Steyn at his kicking and everyone else at defense, also the chases haven't as spot on but this si mainly due to the kicks being too far or too close ITO the up-and-unders and Steyn has been abd with general kicking- also we have been bad at covering quick line-outs which nullify our gameplan) and injury to key players that make it work for us. I think you don't always see the finer aspects of things.

Really well said. As you suggest kicking per se is not the problem (as illustrated by the fact that the leading two teams in Super Rugby kick more than any other team!), it is rather how teams are kicking (and how good the kick chase is). I felt the Boks in the Tri-nations last year were stuck between two game plans - the kick-chase game that had been so effective in '09 and the more expansive gameplan their rivals were playing.... it will be interesting to see what game-plan the Boks adopt this season - I suspect we may see them revert back completely to the style that was so effective in '09.

 

[dan-the-man]

Really well said. As you suggest kicking per se is not the problem (as illustrated by the fact that the leading two teams in Super Rugby kick more than any other team!), it is rather how teams are kicking (and how good the kick chase is). I felt the Boks in the Tri-nations last year were stuck between two game plans - the kick-chase game that had been so effective in '09 and the more expansive gameplan their rivals were playing.... it will be interesting to see what game-plan the Boks adopt this season - I suspect we may see them revert back completely to the style that was so effective in '09.

You ignored my response completely. It seems that they kicked more because they gained more territory. You can't deny that the Reds and Crusaders are running teams. It's just that our guys kick up-and-unders which loses us possession, but those low kicks to the corner that Cooper and Carter do are pretty effective

 

[Sam Owen]

I look at the individual players in those teams, not the overall final standings of those teams. Those players on general are running and keeping the ball in hand, where our players are all kicking the ball away. Just watch the Tri-Nations and if South Africa verse Aus or NZ in the WC...that is if the Boks even make it past the quaters

Fair enough, you made your point. I do agree with the 'Boks kicking away posession a lot but you never know, we might see them follow suit and run it more. They have a lot of good runners like De Villiers, Du Preez, Fourie, Kankowski, Aplon etc...the way I see it, if the ABs and Wallies can do it then so can the 'Boks, how well they do it is another thing.

Come to think of it, I think the 'Boks started adopting the ball in hand game during the tri-nations last year, if I remember correctly.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

It won't work for us.. or to put it better maybe; it won't work for us more than it would for the Australasians for whom it is a traditional strength. Certainly it's good to be able to break the line and know how to support when someone does, put others into space etc but we should still focus on what we are good at and not move too far away from our traditional strengths and only play the 'running game' when we've laid the foundation and have the opposition under enough pressure, have good front foot ball with retreating defenders or have turn-over ball. Not saying we should be 1-dimensional which we are guilty of at times but we should be looking to add variance to our game rather than change it.

 

[Sam Owen]

It won't work for us.. or to put it better maybe; it won't work for us more than it would for the Australasians for whom it is a traditional strength. Certainly it's good to be able to break the line and know how to support when someone does, put others into space etc but we should still focus on what we are good at and not move too far away from our traditional strengths and only play the 'running game' when we've laid the foundation and have the opposition under enough pressure, have good front foot ball with retreating defenders or have turn-over ball. Not saying we should be 1-dimensional which we are guilty of at times but we should be looking to add variance to our game rather than change it.

True that, South African rugby has always had a lot of kicking in it. Way back from as far as I can remember watching the old videos of the Springbok super boot Naas Botha till now with Morne Steyn who is somewhat a super boot himself, it is a traditional way of Springbok play. It is also a strength of the Boks as guys like Morne Steyn, Jannie De Beer and Joel Stransky have demonstrated before. Too right stormy.

 

[big ginger 8]

The thing is the 'boks have very strong individual runners. They are content with run as hard and fast as you can until you get tackled. Whereas N.Z. and Aus keep the ball alive. I can't remenber the last time I saw Cooper hit the deck 9 times out of ten he gets rid of it. Runing the ball isn't one of S.A.'s strengths and in a W.C. year you're going to play to your strengths and not experiment with new styles.

 

[Darwin]

You ignored my response completely. It seems that they kicked more because they gained more territory. You can't deny that the Reds and Crusaders are running teams. It's just that our guys kick up-and-unders which loses us possession, but those low kicks to the corner that Cooper and Carter do are pretty effective

I'm not disagreeing that the Boks kicking game is less effective than their tri-nations partners (as it clearly is), but rather the reason why it is less effective. You suggest that it due to the types of kicks that the Boks are making (which indeed may be part of the issue), but I'd suggest the execution of the kicks is far more important. Despite what you think, up-and-unders when executed correctly can be a very effective weapon. The Boks clearly showed this in '09. Last year their kicking game was less effective, as it was executed poorly. Kicking low for the corners when executed correctly can be a very good tactic, but like kicking up-and-unders if executed poorly (ball kicked out on the full, ball kicked dead, ball kicked in-field offering counter-attacking opportunities) it is not very effective!

 

[dan-the-man]

Look, I see what everyone's saying about how the Boks must play to their strengths. You guys say we try running and we don't do it well. Yes, but the thing is, our running game isn't the same thing as the AB or Wallabies running game. Our idea of running is crashing with useless, fat f#*k props or crashing with the inside centre. There's no fly-half flaire, as Morne Steyn might be the most uncreative fly-half I've ever seen. Our wingers, Habana and Pietersen, don't break tackles. They are finishers, and the South African sheeple rave about how good they are just because they sometimes run in a try. AB and Wallaby wingers like Ranger, Rockococo, Sivivatu, Jane, Gear, Ioane, Mitchell, O'Connor etc constantly break tackles themselves and create tries from nothing. Our wingers, apart from Aplon, are only good for running.

If the right players get selected and we play expansive running rugby, not crash ball rugby, then we'll start to see results. You can't have your fat, over-weight, over-paid prop run straight at a defender and say "see, we play running rugby and it doesn't work for us". That's not running rugby - that's retard rugby

 

[profitius]

Every team has their own style. The Boks will be very hard to beat and anything can happen during a world cup. World cup matches will be tighter than super rugby or tri nations matches.

 

[Gena_ZA]

Dan Dan Dan, relax mate
What if Butch played and not Morne. BJ and not Guthro, Mvovo and not Habana. Will you feel better then or have another set of reasons why we WILL loose. Maybe you have China TV and see all the matches 3 months in advance?

Last year the famous and respected best All Black captain of all time in my opinion Sean Fitzpatrick raised the praises for the Bok team, he as you did like for like comparisons on TV, talked about dominance, intimidations, experience and the like - he could not think up any reason the AB's would beat the Boks. Well after the Tri-Nations no one did a follow up with him as he was in surgery removing the egg from his face... What I am getting at is be very careful to judge two competitions away based on the recent past one and totally a different competition.

The Boks will be very good at the World Cup, they don't produce bad WC teams, period.
As for the Tri-Nations, eish might be tough with the squad they sending for the first 2 matches.

 

[UilamOsa]

Or...

They throw out this Springbok 'B' team. They trial some new systems and perform well in the tri-nations (not necessarily win).
PdV with alot of help from his coaching staff realises that an experience dominated WC team with a core of younger (but 3N tried) players can not only play the standard SA rugby but they can add some points of difference ie with Bekker/Aplon/Mvovo.

Then - with this new bag of tricks, they shake up the RWC...

But this is PdV.

And it is reality.