Will Argentina be a quick study?

[dasNdanger]

After the match with SA, Juan Martin said they were there to try to learn. Now with that first game in the Rugby Championship under their belts, I'm wondering if we will see a team that develops quickly, or one that keeps kicking stones in the middle of the road, neither a bad team, nor a great one.

My hope is that Argentina does grow from this experience, giving the old guard a run for their money. Perhaps not this year, but hopefully within the next couple. Of course, I was also hoping by now that Italy and Scotland would be major contenders, but that hasn't quite happened yet. So, any thoughts? Will this entry into the Rugby Championship be the kick in the drawers that Argentina needs to land themselves in a World Cup final within the next few years?


das

 

[petite]

did the second test anwered you question?

 

[Sam Owen]

After the match with SA, Juan Martin said they were there to try to learn. Now with that first game in the Rugby Championship under their belts, I'm wondering if we will see a team that develops quickly, or one that keeps kicking stones in the middle of the road, neither a bad team, nor a great one.

My hope is that Argentina does grow from this experience, giving the old guard a run for their money. Perhaps not this year, but hopefully within the next couple. Of course, I was also hoping by now that Italy and Scotland would be major contenders, but that hasn't quite happened yet. So, any thoughts? Will this entry into the Rugby Championship be the kick in the drawers that Argentina needs to land themselves in a World Cup final within the next few years?


das

Ofcourse it will improve their rugby. Strengthen it, educate it, its good for the Pumas.

You know one thing is that the Pumas before this never really competed enough with the SANZAR countries, yet the Pumas are always seen as dark horses. They're good for a team that doesnt regularly compete in a tri-nations or a 6 nations but now that they are...I think future looks bright.

 

[kovana]

It also kinda bites... Because us here in Samoa have a superior win record against the Pumas.... 4 matches played, 3 wins to Samoa.. and 1 win to Argy.

 

[The big Kangaroo]

It also kinda bites... Because us here in Samoa have a superior win record against the Pumas.... 4 matches played, 3 wins to Samoa.. and 1 win to Argy.

Yes but they did come 3rd at a world cup, this is their reward for preforming on the world stage

 

[Colombia]

It also kinda bites... Because us here in Samoa have a superior win record against the Pumas.... 4 matches played, 3 wins to Samoa.. and 1 win to Argy.

Based on their performances at the World Cup, and EOYTs the previous year, Samoa can consider themselves unlucky not to be involved in a 5N tournament. I don't think they would disgrace themselves at all.

For those who may question the view, here are some of their results at full strength:

Samoa 13-26 England (L away)
Samoa 16-19 Scotland (L away)
Samoa 32-23 Australia (W away)
Samoa 10-17 Wales (N RWC)
Samoa 27-7 Fiji (N RWC)
Samoa 5-13 Springboks (N RWC)

 

[welshglory]

Samoa's problem will always be the economic situation. I personally think they have much better players than Argentina, Italy and Scotland.

 

[psychic duck]

I agree Samoa would be a nice addition to the tournament. But as welshglory points out, they'll never ever get in it as the SANZAR nations (particularly Aus and NZ) are notorious for being ultra concerned over their profit margins.

Sadly Samoa would never make enough money for them to be added (even if they did reach 3rd in the World Cup), even Argentina had a big fight to convince SANZAR they would benefit the tournament financially.

It would be nice to Samoa get more opportunities against some of the big teams in Australasia more often, they deserve it on merit (Italy have played them much more and Samoa are better than Italy) but it is all finance preventing them. It would also be interesting to see how much better Samoa would do in getting players available for them if they played against New Zealand every year.

Anyway, sadly the way the current international rugby system works, it is all about money. This is something I wish would change, so teams could earn their chance to play in the 6 Nations or 4 Nations each year, rather than it being a closed private members club for the rich.

In football any European nation no matter how rich they are can earn the chance to play in Euro 2016, but in rugby that chance is denied and is decided by businessmen in suits.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I agree Samoa would be a nice addition to the tournament. But as welshglory points out, they'll never ever get in it as the SANZAR nations (particularly Aus and NZ) are notorious for being ultra concerned over their profit margins.

Sadly Samoa would never make enough money for them to be added (even if they did reach 3rd in the World Cup), even Argentina had a big fight to convince SANZAR they would benefit the tournament financially.

It would be nice to Samoa get more opportunities against some of the big teams in Australasia more often, they deserve it on merit (Italy have played them much more and Samoa are better than Italy) but it is all finance preventing them. It would also be interesting to see how much better Samoa would do in getting players available for them if they played against New Zealand every year.

Anyway, sadly the way the current international rugby system works, it is all about money. This is something I wish would change, so teams could earn their chance to play in the 6 Nations or 4 Nations each year, rather than it being a closed private members club for the rich.

In football any European nation no matter how rich they are can earn the chance to play in Euro 2016, but in rugby that chance is denied and is decided by businessmen in suits.

You can't really blame the finance men in NZ or Aus or SA rugby from trying to keep their heads above water. NZ rugby battles to break even, so doing someone which costs them money is obviously going to be avoided. It would be great if that wasn't the case, but you can't blame countries for not running themselves into the ground to help someone else out.

 

[matrightyeh]

dont think so imo

 

[admartian]

If Argentina even gets a sniff at a few outside backs that can attack; SANZAR is in trouble.

 

[big ginger 8]

If Argentina even gets a sniff at a few outside backs that can attack; SANZAR is in trouble.

They have a few:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AnpZN5FqNok" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mq-F6RE3Iv8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Just aren't really being played.

 

[Thingimubob]

They have a few:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AnpZN5FqNok" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mq-F6RE3Iv8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Just aren't really being played.

Ah Dan Parks and Tom James showing their inability to tackle at the end of the Imhoff video

Argentina will only get better if you ask me. Only worry I have is will the NH leagues (Top 14 in particular) be put off signing top Argentinian internationals due to Rugby Championship conflicting with the start of their season. Plus on top of that, when they get the players back they'll probably have to rest them because they'll barely have a chance during the summer months with top 14 playoffs ending in June, followed by the Summer tours with then the RC and Top 14 starting up again in August. That pretty much only gives them July off, hell of a harsh playing season!

 

[welshglory]

Ah Dan Parks and Tom James showing their inability to tackle at the end of the Imhoff video

Argentina will only get better if you ask me. Only worry I have is will the NH leagues (Top 14 in particular) be put off signing top Argentinian internationals due to Rugby Championship conflicting with the start of their season. Plus on top of that, when they get the players back they'll probably have to rest them because they'll barely have a chance during the summer months with top 14 playoffs ending in June, followed by the Summer tours with then the RC and Top 14 starting up again in August. That pretty much only gives them July off, hell of a harsh playing season!

Then SANZAR should put their money where their mouth is and allow foreign players into Super rugby (god knows the Rebels, Western Force and Kings/Lions need them!), or create another franchise especially for them.

 

[psychic duck]

Then SANZAR should put their money where their mouth is and allow foreign players into Super rugby (god knows the Rebels, Western Force and Kings/Lions need them!), or create another franchise especially for them.

Good point. It would be much easier scheduling wise for Argentines to play Super Rugby, or failing that for the lesser fringe players to play Currie Cup/ITM Cup rugby. Another option for the Argentines is to play in Japan which fits in better with their international schedule and from the quality of players that league has managed to attract pays well too, but whatever reason (cultural?) no Argentines have ever gone there.

 

[Thingimubob]

Good point. It would be much easier scheduling wise for Argentines to play Super Rugby, or failing that for the lesser fringe players to play Currie Cup/ITM Cup rugby. Another option for the Argentines is to play in Japan which fits in better with their international schedule and from the quality of players that league has managed to attract pays well too, but whatever reason (cultural?) no Argentines have ever gone there.

Doubt it's cultural, its only fairly recently that some big name players have started going to Japan while still being fairly in their prime rather than right at the end of their career (a la Larkham, though he only went there after Edinburgh and the SRU mucked up his deal) so it's only now starting to truly establish itself as a big league on the world stage (in my opinion anyway). This and the fact that the top 14 seems to have a monopoly on any talent coming out of Argentina has probably gently steered players away from the J-League.
That said, I agree that the Super 15 and J-League will definitely suit them far more when it comes to season schedule, so if SANZAR do lift the restrictions (how long will that take? ) I reckon we'll see an influx of Argies into both leagues.

 

[dasNdanger]

Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone for their replies!

did the second test anwered you question?

A bit.

Ofcourse it will improve their rugby. Strengthen it, educate it, its good for the Pumas.

You know one thing is that the Pumas before this never really competed enough with the SANZAR countries, yet the Pumas are always seen as dark horses. They're good for a team that doesnt regularly compete in a tri-nations or a 6 nations but now that they are...I think future looks bright.

I suppose I look at countries like Italy who seem destined to forever sit on the bottom of the 6 Nations pile and wonder if Argentina was facing the same fate. I like Argentina, I'd like to see them - and other countries - become major contenders, and I'm hoping this will be the experience they need.

It also kinda bites... Because us here in Samoa have a superior win record against the Pumas.... 4 matches played, 3 wins to Samoa.. and 1 win to Argy.

Yes, I would love to see Samoa, and others, play with the 'big boys'. I never understood why it wasn't so (esp. since Samoa seems like a natural fit into what was Tri-Nations). And then I read this:

I agree Samoa would be a nice addition to the tournament. But as welshglory points out, they'll never ever get in it as the SANZAR nations (particularly Aus and NZ) are notorious for being ultra concerned over their profit margins.

Sadly Samoa would never make enough money for them to be added (even if they did reach 3rd in the World Cup), even Argentina had a big fight to convince SANZAR they would benefit the tournament financially.

It would be nice to Samoa get more opportunities against some of the big teams in Australasia more often, they deserve it on merit (Italy have played them much more and Samoa are better than Italy) but it is all finance preventing them. It would also be interesting to see how much better Samoa would do in getting players available for them if they played against New Zealand every year.

Anyway, sadly the way the current international rugby system works, it is all about money. This is something I wish would change, so teams could earn their chance to play in the 6 Nations or 4 Nations each year, rather than it being a closed private members club for the rich.

In football any European nation no matter how rich they are can earn the chance to play in Euro 2016, but in rugby that chance is denied and is decided by businessmen in suits.

Thanks for explaining this. As someone new to the rugby discussion (though not new to the sport), I've never really had any education about the politics of the game. And I must say that I agree with what you're saying. If rugby is going to survive in this extremely competitive world of sports, they need to strengthen more teams, get more countries involved in top play. I'm hearing more and more how American (gridiron) football is starting to gain a foothold overseas, and that, coupled with football's (soccer) overwhelming worldwide popularity, could pull more fans (or prospective fans) away from the sport. When you make something too elite it will suffer, especially in this economy and with so many different sports now crowding the field.

Then SANZAR should put their money where their mouth is and allow foreign players into Super rugby (god knows the Rebels, Western Force and Kings/Lions need them!), or create another franchise especially for them.

I like the idea of another franchise for foreign players, though not sure where they could squeeze it in. I must admit that one thing I enjoy about Super Rugby is that there aren't foreign players, and therefore not so many player changes, which makes it easier for me to keep up with who is doing what, and where. When I watch NH matches I'm often all like, 'who the hell is this guy and where did he come from'. when some new foreign player joins the ranks. And the fact that they seem to move around so much makes it even worse. I suppose that's why SH teams have always felt a bit more familiar to me than the NH ones.


das

 

[BZHopenside]

There are a good number of overseas players in Super 15, particularly Samoans and Tongans, but you also have the likes of Gareth Delve, Freddie Michalak, and James Haskell. This issue in the NH, particularly France and England, is that they have over 60 fully pro teams (Top 14, Pro D2, AP, Championship, Pro 12) compared with under 30 in the SH. Famous internationals are spread around much more thinly.

 

[smartcooky]

Argentina will only get better if you ask me. Only worry I have is will the NH leagues (Top 14 in particular) be put off signing top Argentinian internationals due to Rugby Championship conflicting with the start of their season.

On the other hand, looking at the glass half full, they get back a better quality of player for their experience at international level. The Rugby Championship is a level far above that of any domestic competition, Top 14/Premiership included. They are competing against the three top sides in the world.

Plus on top of that, when they get the players back they'll probably have to rest them because they'll barely have a chance during the summer months with top 14 playoffs ending in June, followed by the Summer tours with then the RC and Top 14 starting up again in August. That pretty much only gives them July off, hell of a harsh playing season!

Not as harsh as you think, and your timing is a bit out anyway.

The deal they had going with the English and French clubs this year was that Argentina's Rugby Championship squad members were not allowed to play the June internationals. This is just the same as what England and France used to do unofficially; sending second and third string teams South during the June tours while resting their top players. In this case, Argentina has a formal agreement with the Top 14 and Premiership clubs to rest their top players during June, and then assemble their squad in early in July in advance of the RC.

If this continues, it could be good for Argentina Rugby; having the top guys playing the Rugby Championship, and the tier of players below getting test level experience during the June tours.

 

[Thingimubob]

Ah didn't realise they had that agreement, makes sense, a lot easier on the players.

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