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Yes / No Irish Austerity Referendum.

lucky number 7

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Well , what's the opinions? , I'm inclined to vote no.

We're being ****ed by the Eu after being ****ed by the banks , If they touch our corporation tax they take away the only thing Ireland's Economy really has going for it.




The horrendous Austerity measures being imposed upon Greece are shocking , and little by little Ireland is losing it's independence.
 
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My knowledge about politics isn't great (better than most my age though) but it seems to me we've kind of being snookered into having to vote Yes as we need all the help we can get.
 
I also ****ing hate Labours campaign posters .."Yes for stability" **** stability , we're down the shitter , we don't want to be stable
 
This is what happens when you have lefties in power while bending over backwards to appease Brussels (the Euro-parliament IMO is possibly the most corrupt organisation going). Nobody cuts their cloth and then the money runs out.

Simple rule of economics (or even owning a personal bank account) - Spend more then you bring in and you go bust. Borrow what you cannot pay back and you're ****ed.

Not the fault of the public, it's the fault of the chancellor (well, technically the public - or part thereof - voted in the party but that's another debate). Everybody has to pay back for those who were irresponsible.

Live goes on.
 
This is what happens when you have lefties in power while bending over backwards to appease Brussels (the Euro-parliament IMO is possibly the most corrupt organisation going). Nobody cuts their cloth and then the money runs out.

Simple rule of economics (or even owning a personal bank account) - Spend more then you bring in and you go bust. Borrow what you cannot pay back and you're ****ed.

Not the fault of the public, it's the fault of the chancellor (well, technically the public - or part thereof - voted in the party but that's another debate). Everybody has to pay back for those who were irresponsible.

Live goes on.

Just one or two questions.

On what basis do you think that the present Irish Government or previous Irish Governments are/have been left wing? Just wondering what you're basing that on.

And I get that its your opinion that the European Parliament is corrupt but again what are you basing that on? As an institution it has **** all power, so it wouldn't make sense for people to try to corrupt it as there'd be nothing to gain from doing so. The European institutions with real power are the Council of Ministers and the Commission.

This isn't me trolling, just wondering why you think what you think.
 
I get the feeling you're entirely missing the point, even from the thread ***le. It's called the fiscal stability treaty, not the austerity referendum. This isn't a vote on austerity, no matter how much the no campaign would like it to be.


In a nutshell, when Ireland signed up to the Maastrict treaty (the one that essentially put in place all the ground work for the single currency), we in effect made a gentleman's agreement to keep annual government deficit below 3% of our GDP (60% in total). What the fiscal stability treaty do is make that a legal requirement that we must meet by 2015. In a sense, it's strengthening a rule that we already signed up for 22 years ago.

The treaty also introduces restrictions on the amount of structural debt a country may carry, limiting it to between 0.5-1% per year. If a country fails to abide by this, it must work with the EC toward correcting it's deficit.

The key point is that all of this is that these rules will enter law should a member country sign up to the treaty. These rules will therefore have to be kept. For the treaty to come into action, 12 of the 17 member states must ratify it. This will happen regardless of whether we vote yes, but if we don't it will not apply to us.


So what's to gain by voting yes?

The treaty also lays down provision for the European Stability Mechanism, the EU financial assistance body. Should we vote no, we will not have access to funds from the ESM in future, meaning that should we ever need financial assistance , our only port of call will be the IMF, who will give us less money at a far higher interest rate. This is why the yes side can legitimately call a yes vote a vote for financial stability. Ireland ratifying the treaty would do two things:
i) Give us access to cheaper credit should we need it in the future
ii) Convince the markets that we're heading in the right direction economically.

On the second point, economics is as much about psychology as it is about actual finance. If at looks like we are trying to keep our financial matters in order, people we be more confident in us, the Euro will be strengthened and our recovery will proceed quicker. The opposite is true if we vote no imo.

The no side currently is working off the slogan 'austerity isn't working.' Well, what's the alternative? We can, as so many people on the street seem to want, tell the IMF and ECB to shove off, stop paying back our debt and be out of money be christmas. We could vote no, but then all of a sudden market confidence in the country would drop significantly and the odds of us needing a second bailout (to which we'd have to go to the IMF for) would be higher. We're too small a country to buy our way out of the economic slump, so trying to control our debt and get our financial affairs in order is the only way to go. TBH if we want to be running smoothly economically, we should be within the constraints set out by the treaty regardless of whether we were to sign up.

The only credible no argument idea I've heard is that because of the recent presidential election in France the political landscape of Europe is a bit uncertain at the moment and that we shouldn't tie ourselves into anything. But to that I'd say the treaty will be ratified regardless of what we do. We won't get a second chance at this because they don't need us. Ideally the election would be pushed back a bit, but as it isn't I'd rather err on the side of caution that take a chance on the possibility that Europe takes a U-turn.
 
TRF_Feicarsinn;503080[B said:
]I get the feeling you're entirely missing the point, even from the thread ***le. It's called the fiscal stability treaty, not the austerity referendum.[/B] This isn't a vote on austerity, no matter how much the no campaign would like it to be.


In a nutshell, when Ireland signed up to the Maastrict treaty (the one that essentially put in place all the ground work for the single currency), we in effect made a gentleman's agreement to keep annual government deficit below 3% of our GDP (60% in total). What the fiscal stability treaty do is make that a legal requirement that we must meet by 2015. In a sense, it's strengthening a rule that we already signed up for 22 years ago.

The treaty also introduces restrictions on the amount of structural debt a country may carry, limiting it to between 0.5-1% per year. If a country fails to abide by this, it must work with the EC toward correcting it's deficit.

The key point is that all of this is that these rules will enter law should a member country sign up to the treaty. These rules will therefore have to be kept. For the treaty to come into action, 12 of the 17 member states must ratify it. This will happen regardless of whether we vote yes, but if we don't it will not apply to us.


So what's to gain by voting yes?

The treaty also lays down provision for the European Stability Mechanism, the EU financial assistance body. Should we vote no, we will not have access to funds from the ESM in future, meaning that should we ever need financial assistance , our only port of call will be the IMF, who will give us less money at a far higher interest rate. This is why the yes side can legitimately call a yes vote a vote for financial stability. Ireland ratifying the treaty would do two things:
i) Give us access to cheaper credit should we need it in the future
ii) Convince the markets that we're heading in the right direction economically.

On the second point, economics is as much about psychology as it is about actual finance. If at looks like we are trying to keep our financial matters in order, people we be more confident in us, the Euro will be strengthened and our recovery will proceed quicker. The opposite is true if we vote no imo.

The no side currently is working off the slogan 'austerity isn't working.' Well, what's the alternative? We can, as so many people on the street seem to want, tell the IMF and ECB to shove off, stop paying back our debt and be out of money be christmas. We could vote no, but then all of a sudden market confidence in the country would drop significantly and the odds of us needing a second bailout (to which we'd have to go to the IMF for) would be higher. We're too small a country to buy our way out of the economic slump, so trying to control our debt and get our financial affairs in order is the only way to go. TBH if we want to be running smoothly economically, we should be within the constraints set out by the treaty regardless of whether we were to sign up.

The only credible no argument idea I've heard is that because of the recent presidential election in France the political landscape of Europe is a bit uncertain at the moment and that we shouldn't tie ourselves into anything. But to that I'd say the treaty will be ratified regardless of what we do. We won't get a second chance at this because they don't need us. Ideally the election would be pushed back a bit, but as it isn't I'd rather err on the side of caution that take a chance on the possibility that Europe takes a U-turn.

We're going to be ****ed by the the measures if the referendum is passed.

Ireland's current debt - http://www.debtclock.ie/ An agreement made 22 years ago , in 1990 the Irish economy was experiencing decent growth about 5% the nation was going places and this agreement at the time was viable , however the subsequent **** fest means that now in the forseeable future to meet these measures would serve to cripple the Irish people for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps , however Ireland's economic growth during the boom years was due to our low corporation tax and the fact we spoke English in Eurpoe. making us a nice little den to throw money into , if we lose our low corporation tax as has been suggested by The new French president I believe then we lose one of the only things we have going for us in terms of receiving FDI.

Look at Greece ..The measures that are being imposed there are horrendous , the barrel has long been scraped clean.

I don't see how at any point allowing the EU to impose these measures upon us will help the Irish people on the ground in any way in the coming years , sure we may recover in 15 ,20 30 years of being ****ed dry by Brussels but if they take the only things that make us a good place to invest how exactly can this occur.
 
Alright then, propose an alternative means of economic recovery.
 
Keep corporation tax low.

Whore ourselves to the American and Chinese investors , in particular the Chinese , offer them wonderful beautiful terms.

The focus should be on making more money as opposed to saving it , the more business set up the fewer people there will be unemployed and relying on social welfare and as such lowering government spending.

I can't write as much as I'd like as I'm heading for lunch , but I'll continue my nonsensical ramblings later.
 
Keep corporation tax low.

Whore ourselves to the American and Chinese investors , in particular the Chinese , offer them wonderful beautiful terms.

The focus should be on making more money as opposed to saving it , the more business set up the fewer people there will be unemployed and relying on social welfare and as such lowering government spending.

I can't write as much as I'd like as I'm heading for lunch , but I'll continue my nonsensical ramblings later.

Goldman Sachs and China have already decided that they are not going to invest in Euro-governments and are going to concentrate their investment/exploitation on the third world (Africa etc) and developing countries (South America etc).

In a long term view you don't want your countries businesses in the hands of people not in your country as they won't think anything of breaking them up/selling them on for a loss if they think its needed.

A more sensible approach would be to raise taxes, not whore yourself out, and encourage people to spend less in personal terms.
 
Goldman Sachs and China have already decided that they are not going to invest in Euro-governments and are going to concentrate their investment/exploitation on the third world (Africa etc) and developing countries (South America etc).

In a long term view you don't want your countries businesses in the hands of people not in your country as they won't think anything of breaking them up/selling them on for a loss if they think its needed.




A more sensible approach would be to raise taxes, not whore yourself out, and encourage people to spend less in personal terms.
The Chineese Vice president was in Ireland last week and there was allegedly plenty of talks regarding trade between the two nations and whatnot.

As a small island with little or no raw materials save for Tara Mines and whatnot we have little or nothing to offer in the way of our own exports , we need the large foreign firms in order to prosper.

I wouldn't be opposed to slight increase in income tax ,

As for encouraging people not to spend , I disagree with that somewhat.
 

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