Ireland's Propping crisis at tipping point.

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I do have some bad news for Irish posters who are hoping that Michael Bent will be their savior.... he is not any good. He is an ok scrummager at ITM Cup level, and can play on both sides of the scrum, but that is about it.

Wait until you see Ronan Loughney or Stephen Archer! Somehow Loughney is getting praised because he can supposedly play both sides of the scrum. That he has his head shoved up his arse on each side is another matter entirely!

Nobody is expecting miracles with Michael Bent. If he gets capped, it says more about Ireland's lack of options than anything else. With Mike Ross and Tom Court injured, Ireland are bang out of options. I think he's been signed by Leinster as a low risk option. If he works out, he'll be Mike Ross' backup (much like Nathan White this season). If he doesn't, he'll be an experienced body to have covering both sides of the bench in Pro 12 games when the top players are on international duty.

 

[munstermuffin]

Finally, Leinster sign a dud

 

[Feicarsinn]

Joe will inevitably turn him into the next Carl Hayman.

 

[munstermuffin]

Joe will inevitably turn him into the next Carl Hayman.

 

[mulldog]

Great blog! On the matter on Jon Andress, I dont rate him that much at all, but I feel the union do their utmost to get all Irish qualified props back to the country anyway.

Ruaidhri Murphy, a former Ireland U20's player is playing for the Brumbies in the Super 15 and seems a very accomplished player with 11 appearances for his side who currently lie 3rd in the competition. Although alot of the apperances he has accumlated have been of the bench it is important to remember he's still only 24!

http://www.brumbies.com.au/Team/PlayerProfile/tabid/1208/playerid/49/Default.aspx​

 

[Peat]

I've been seeing some people say they expect Tadgh Furlong to end the season as Ross' back-up...

 

[Feicarsinn]

That'd be impressive,seeing as he'll be fourth choice at best come the start of next season. I don't even think he's played for the A's yet.


In some ways this is where having only four provinces is a drawback. IMO if there's one thing young props need it's game time. Look at the improvement of the like of Doran-Jones once he went over to England and started playing more. Furlong will be 20 in November, but he might be up to 4 years away from getting a shot with Leinster's first team.

 

[Peat]

No doubt about that - but the internet rumour is he's just that impressive.

And you're absolutely right about the gametime thing for young props, if I was an Irish prop I'd leave for England young and learn my trade there. Or France.

 

[Irishflanker]

He reminds me in many ways of Peter Borlase..... Sorry to be the bearer of bad news...

I refuse to believe that anybody else could be as much of a waste of time and space...

 

[Shaggy]

Great article Feic ... it's interesting to read what the Irish (and UK based) posters think about this Propping dilemma.

... If the policy is to pick players playing in Ireland, then it really does cut down the options when you have four top class sides, and ineligible players, such as Afoa, taking up positions that could be filled by an Irishman.

If they are considering players playing in other countries, I agree with the post about Murphy playing for the Brumbies in the Super XV as a possible option.

The Brumbies are far from my favorite team, and I think there's a recording somewhere of me writing them off as a team of no names, but they are playing well, and their scrum seems to be working fine ... if nothing else, Murphy would probably have recent game time experience against many of the All Blacks.

The year after the World Cup is always interesting, as we get to see new players coming in to fill positions vacated by more experienced players (I know this Propping crisis is due to injuries, but it's the same principle) ... I'm particularly looking forward to scrum time in this series to see how the Irish new guys go, and also to see if the guys they select to replace Brad Thorn can fill the void for the All Blacks

 

[Feicarsinn]

Great article Feic ... it's interesting to read what the Irish (and UK based) posters think about this Propping dilemma.

... If the policy is to pick players playing in Ireland, then it really does cut down the options when you have four top class sides, and ineligible players, such as Afoa, taking up positions that could be filled by an Irishman.

If they are considering players playing in other countries, I agree with the post about Murphy playing for the Brumbies in the Super XV as a possible option.

The Brumbies are far from my favorite team, and I think there's a recording somewhere of me writing them off as a team of no names, but they are playing well, and their scrum seems to be working fine ... if nothing else, Murphy would probably have recent game time experience against many of the All Blacks.

The year after the World Cup is always interesting, as we get to see new players coming in to fill positions vacated by more experienced players (I know this Propping crisis is due to injuries, but it's the same principle) ... I'm particularly looking forward to scrum time in this series to see how the Irish new guys go, and also to see if the guys they select to replace Brad Thorn can fill the void for the All Blacks

This is the root of the problem really. Of the 4 Irish provinces, only Leinster and Connacht have Irish qualified tight heads regularly starting. Tragic.

 

[Peat]

I would suggest that the root of the problem is that most Irish-qualified tightheads aren't people you want starting in HEC matches. And while some of that is not getting development opportunities, a lot of its due to not really forming props from a young enough age, and players who simply aren't good enough. Buckley and Archer spring to mind here. The abundance of NIQ props is a symptom of this.

Mindyou, some of it's bad luck. In another dimension, Simon Best's heart was ok, and he's only just been forced out of the Ireland squad by his Ulster understudy, a Declan Fitzpatrick who doesn't get injured every time he turns around. Daragh Hurley wouldn't have been a cripple either. And someone would have been keeping an eye on Porno Dorm Jones and got to him before his 11 minutes of fame. Ok, that last bit wasn't bad luck, just plain sloppiness.

 

[big ginger 8]

Good read. It really is a waiting game now. Instead of the IRFU's policy about foreign players which is clearly because of props a development programme should be put in place for props alone making sure certain one get a certain amount of gametime in the rabo/h cup.

I've also got to wonder where the idea that Michael Bent's a good scrummager came from.

 

[Darwin]

Good read. It really is a waiting game now. Instead of the IRFU's policy about foreign players which is clearly because of props a development programme should be put in place for props alone making sure certain one get a certain amount of gametime in the rabo/h cup.

I've also got to wonder where the idea that Michael Bent's a good scrummager came from.

I read here that he is apparently a strong scrummager, and that the Canes scrum improved whenever he has come on, and the only reason that he hasn't started this year is because Hammett wants his props to do other things (like clean breakdowns and make tackles). The problem is that the article is written by Glenn McLean, who is a Taranaki based journalist who thinks that all Taranaki players should be starting at Super Rugby level / in the All Blacks... I wonder whether that article (or other articles based on that article) has influenced peoples views on Bent's scrummaging

Just to clarify: Bent is not the worst scrummager, but I certainly wouldn't call him a strong scrummager (I'd describe him as average...at best).

 

[Draggs]

I've also got to wonder where the idea that Michael Bent's a good scrummager came from.

Best name for prop since James Slipper.

 

[profitius]

Theres plenty of props coming through. They need games and we need to be patient because it'll take about 3 seasons before we see the new wave of props. In the meantime Declan Fitzpatrick looks a decent option at tighthead and Ronan Loughney is coming good at last. Both have had injuries throughout their careers,

 

[Feicarsinn]

Theres plenty of props coming through. They need games and we need to be patient because it'll take about 3 seasons before we see the new wave of props. In the meantime Declan Fitzpatrick looks a decent option at tighthead and Ronan Loughney is coming good at last. Both have had injuries throughout their careers,

Hmm, I dunno about that Loughney bit. He still seems incredibly average to me.


What's the story with young props down in Munster out of interest? Leinster and Ulster seem pretty well stacked, but I don't know any of the Munster lads coming through. Are any of them any use?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Good to see this thread brought back up. The last month has told us quite a bit about Ireland's propping stocks.

Cian Healy and Mike Ross are still clearly front line players who'll start every game but with 23 man squads from November, Ireland now have options. Tom Court is still fine as backup loosehead. I'm coming around to Peat's line of thinking, Declan Fitzpatrick is better than I thought. As a stop gap backup until someone else comes through, he could earn himself 10-15 caps.

Further down the line, Tadhg Furlong has been awesome for the u20s. Perhaps it's time for Leinster to fast track him. With Michael Bent not due to arrive until November and Mike Ross being rested due to his international commitments, I'd look to give him plenty of action, initially off the bench, in September and October. If he proves his worth, he could start ahead of Jamie Hagan.

@profitius
It would please me greatly if Ronan Loughney started to come good but he's still terrible. Next season he won't start regularly for Connacht unless injuries strike others with Brett Wilkinson and Nathan White the likely front line props. They're both much better players. Loughney can be a serviceable backup loosehead for a weak team but no more than that in my view.

Edit - of young Munster props, Alan Cotter and Dave Kilcoyne seem to be the most highly rated.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Leinster should try and link up with an RFU Championship club to loan players out to get experience - Furlong could learn more from a season in the Championship than from a handful of bench appearances for Leinster. Sale has done this with Leeds and our academy players are coming on much stronger.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Irishflanker]

In Munster: David Kilcoyne looks like he could have a bit of potential, but its hard to say after only a handful of games. John Ryan seems to be highly rated, I remember B-J talking about how he was brought along on the HC trips to give him an insight into what the mentality was like, I think (not too sure) that he can cover both sides of the scrum. Alan Cotter is also doing very well in the AIL (not a bad thing for a prop). All in all I see Archer being replaced by both Cotter and Ryan as a viable option for Munster, and Kilcoyne could well overtake Horan this season.