BLM and South African Players

[mdaclarke]

https://rugby365.com/tournaments/pr...ister-opens-up-about-saffas-refusal-to-kneel/
"The South African players’ refusal to take a knee in support of Black Lives Matter before the Sale Sharks v Harlequins match last Friday, could have tremendous consequences in South Africa.

According to various media reports, South Africa’s Minister for Sports, Arts and Culture Nathi Mthethwa has requested an investigation into the reasons behind the Saffas failing to kneel during the pre-match gesture.

Prior to the Premiership return, tournament organisers allowed the 12 clubs and players the freedom to determine how they will support the anti-Racism campaign under the banner ‘Rugby Against Racism’.


All the players wore ‘Rugby Against Racism’ T-shirts to the #BLM movement.

There were eleven Sale Sharks players, who chose to remain standing – with eight being South Africans, namely Coenie Oosthuizen, Akker van der Merwe, Jean-Luc du Preez, Lood de Jager, captain Jono Ross, Dan du Preez, Faf de Klerk and Rob du Preez.

The eight were joined by England centre Manu Tuilagi, Welsh prop WillGriff John and Scotland wing Byron McGuignon (who were both born in Namibia).

South Africans Ruan Ackermann and Francois Venter also remained standing during Gloucester and Worcester Warriors fixture on Saturday.

Addressing the matter, Mthethwa said: “We do not want to jump the gun on the specific matter of the South African players in England who didn’t kneel in support of the BLM movement but we did say we want to understand what’s happening‚ and what is the position of SA Rugby in this whole thing.

“The first thing we noted is that they were wearing the t-shirts which support the BLM movement but they did not kneel.”

He added: “Upon seeing this‚ I interacted with SA Rugby through its president [Mark Alexander] and I asked him to explain what’s happening so that we are on the same wavelength.

“You must remember we were together at the World Cup in Japan as a country with some of the players and one thing which cannot be tolerated is when somebody is displaying racist behaviour and showing racist attitude.

“The president of SA Rugby did say that they are going to be having their own meeting and they will make their views known.”

Meanwhile, in England, Sale Sharks boss Steve Diamond has described the controversy over his South African players’ refusal to take a knee prior to last Friday’s Premiership restart match versus Harlequins as a “storm in a teacup”.

“Four of our players took the knee and that is their entitlement and the rest didn’t,” he said. “It will be a storm in a teacup and we all wore the Rugby Against Racism t-shirts which we thought was important. I don’t think it is too much to worry about if I am honest.” "



I would guess it is down to religious reasons.

If it becomes compulsory then it loses all meaning and is no more than an act of subjection.

Whilst there may be a lot of angry talk, I struggle to see any long term consequences as it is difficult to prove that not kneeling is racist in and of itself.

I note that it wasn't just the South Africans that didn;t take the knee

 

[TRF_heineken]

https://rugby365.com/tournaments/pr...ister-opens-up-about-saffas-refusal-to-kneel/
"The South African players’ refusal to take a knee in support of Black Lives Matter before the Sale Sharks v Harlequins match last Friday, could have tremendous consequences in South Africa.

According to various media reports, South Africa’s Minister for Sports, Arts and Culture Nathi Mthethwa has requested an investigation into the reasons behind the Saffas failing to kneel during the pre-match gesture.

Prior to the Premiership return, tournament organisers allowed the 12 clubs and players the freedom to determine how they will support the anti-Racism campaign under the banner ‘Rugby Against Racism’.


All the players wore ‘Rugby Against Racism’ T-shirts to the #BLM movement.

There were eleven Sale Sharks players, who chose to remain standing – with eight being South Africans, namely Coenie Oosthuizen, Akker van der Merwe, Jean-Luc du Preez, Lood de Jager, captain Jono Ross, Dan du Preez, Faf de Klerk and Rob du Preez.

The eight were joined by England centre Manu Tuilagi, Welsh prop WillGriff John and Scotland wing Byron McGuignon (who were both born in Namibia).

South Africans Ruan Ackermann and Francois Venter also remained standing during Gloucester and Worcester Warriors fixture on Saturday.

Addressing the matter, Mthethwa said: “We do not want to jump the gun on the specific matter of the South African players in England who didn’t kneel in support of the BLM movement but we did say we want to understand what’s happening‚ and what is the position of SA Rugby in this whole thing.

“The first thing we noted is that they were wearing the t-shirts which support the BLM movement but they did not kneel.”

He added: “Upon seeing this‚ I interacted with SA Rugby through its president [Mark Alexander] and I asked him to explain what’s happening so that we are on the same wavelength.

“You must remember we were together at the World Cup in Japan as a country with some of the players and one thing which cannot be tolerated is when somebody is displaying racist behaviour and showing racist attitude.

“The president of SA Rugby did say that they are going to be having their own meeting and they will make their views known.”

Meanwhile, in England, Sale Sharks boss Steve Diamond has described the controversy over his South African players’ refusal to take a knee prior to last Friday’s Premiership restart match versus Harlequins as a “storm in a teacup”.

“Four of our players took the knee and that is their entitlement and the rest didn’t,” he said. “It will be a storm in a teacup and we all wore the Rugby Against Racism t-shirts which we thought was important. I don’t think it is too much to worry about if I am honest.” "



I would guess it is down to religious reasons.

If it becomes compulsory then it loses all meaning and is no more than an act of subjection.

Whilst there may be a lot of angry talk, I struggle to see any long term consequences as it is difficult to prove that not kneeling is racist in and of itself.

I note that it wasn't just the South Africans that didn;t take the knee

Our sports minister doesn't really care if other non-saffa's did or didn't take the knee.

For him it's purely political, and he's trying to score political points.

There is a massive issue about this BLM movement in SA, and in Cricket it's much worse with a bunch of former Protea players suddenly voicing their struggles while they were playing, and how they were discriminated against. Some of the remarks are a bunch of BS, but they are still getting a platform and are running with their drivel.

The kneeling, for a lot of guys are a religious thing, and most of them will only kneel when praying. But I think the minister is missing the gesture these guys had, they rather chose to stand united against racism, which IMHO is bigger than black lives matter, because they are standing up against all forms of racism, not just against black people.

But our government just can't remove their eyepatches.

Depending on what the executive committee finds with their investigation, my guess is that some of these players might not feature again in a springbok jersey, which would be a big loss for SA rugby, should the minister have his way.

It's just once again an example, with how spineless WR and other nations are against our government and their repeated interference into sport.

 

[mdaclarke]

Our sports minister doesn't really care if other non-saffa's did or didn't take the knee.

For him it's purely political, and he's trying to score political points.

There is a massive issue about this BLM movement in SA, and in Cricket it's much worse with a bunch of former Protea players suddenly voicing their struggles while they were playing, and how they were discriminated against. Some of the remarks are a bunch of BS, but they are still getting a platform and are running with their drivel.

The kneeling, for a lot of guys are a religious thing, and most of them will only kneel when praying. But I think the minister is missing the gesture these guys had, they rather chose to stand united against racism, which IMHO is bigger than black lives matter, because they are standing up against all forms of racism, not just against black people.

But our government just can't remove their eyepatches.

Depending on what the executive committee finds with their investigation, my guess is that some of these players might not feature again in a springbok jersey, which would be a big loss for SA rugby, should the minister have his way.

It's just once again an example, with how spineless WR and other nations are against our government and their repeated interference into sport.

That would be a massive massive overreaction, I hope that the explanation is accepted. I do agree that this may be just point scoring. If anyone can cool it down it will be Rassie.

I noted that Manu Tuilagi also refused to kneel and some other teams didn't kneel either, I believe a lot of the polynesian players are also very religious.

I think out of the Sale players, the only one would would be a massive loss is De Klerk.

 

[TRF_heineken]

That would be a massive massive overreaction, I hope that the explanation is accepted. I do agree that this may be just point scoring. If anyone can cool it down it will be Rassie.

I noted that Manu Tuilagi also refused to kneel and some other teams didn't kneel either, I believe a lot of the polynesian players are also very religious.

I think out of the Sale players, the only one would would be a massive loss is De Klerk.

And Lood De Jager!!

Rassie won't get involved in the politics side of the sport. He knows that the Minister will then use his influence to get rid of him as well. Our Sports minister and our entire government is using this BLM movement to make the Quota/transformation in sport relevant again.

We've already seen remarks in our newspapers about how other sporting codes are under a microscope even during lockdown, where they didn't meet transformation targets and received a directive from government as to how to change that, and it better happen quick.

On the other side, there has been a lot of other movements happening in SA, where people are using BLM, but changing the word Black, to Boere, in aid of our farmers and the continuous murders happening at the farms. Yet, the government is not showing any support for that movement...

 

[mdaclarke]

And Lood De Jager!!

Rassie won't get involved in the politics side of the sport. He knows that the Minister will then use his influence to get rid of him as well. Our Sports minister and our entire government is using this BLM movement to make the Quota/transformation in sport relevant again.

We've already seen remarks in our newspapers about how other sporting codes are under a microscope even during lockdown, where they didn't meet transformation targets and received a directive from government as to how to change that, and it better happen quick.

On the other side, there has been a lot of other movements happening in SA, where people are using BLM, but changing the word Black, to Boere, in aid of our farmers and the continuous murders happening at the farms. Yet, the government is not showing any support for that movement...

I forgot about Lood.

I would guess the fact that the Springboks are world champions will give Rassie and SARU some help. Everyone (especially politicians) loves a winner. I noticed that the Etzebeth story went quiet once the World Cup was won.

Beating the Lions would help even more.

I imagine (hope?) that these stories will die down once Rugby starts up in South Africa.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Maybe an idea is for South African players to stay there, get citizenship and never to return to this hopeless country again.
That's what i would do.

 

[JohnKA]

So everyone is forced to support BLM ? criminal offense if you do not ? (Just incase I also have to answer to the BLM police I never said I do not support it, just an general question)

 

[mdaclarke]

My view is the wearing the T-Shirts is sufficient. If you have religious reasons not to kneel then that's fine by me.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

What about if your justification is that BLM are burning down churches...
Which they aren't...
But some evangelical american said they might be, despite the fact that they aren't

 

[mdaclarke]

What about if your justification is that BLM are burning down churches...
Which they aren't...
But some evangelical american said they might be, despite the fact that they aren't

??? I would be extremely surprised if that was the reason why certain premiership players didn't take the knee. I note that it was not just South African's and some clubs did not take the knee at all.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

??? I would be extremely surprised if that was the reason why certain premiership players didn't take the knee. I note that it was not just South African's and some clubs did not take the knee at all.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/that...ant-support-that-vunipola-black-lives-matter/Before the Bath v LIrish match, only Rokoduguni didn't take a knee. With a far superior rationale IMO

 

[unrated]

https://www.news24.com/sport/rugby/...tter-thats-just-another-day-in-rugby-20200820


A shitstorm is brewing in SA over that Pre match sale game.

It ****** me off that people think you should be forced to support, the popular culture fad of the month. It's basically auth right politicians and citizens posing as lib left. Claiming moral upper ground and vilifying any contrasting opinions. It's a culture of shame and shade throwing. If you are one of the people throwing shade for personal choices made, then I consider you a disgusting human being.

It's literally a majority opressing the opinions of a minority.

 

[JohnKA]

Tyranny.

 

[TRF_heineken]

https://www.news24.com/sport/rugby/...tter-thats-just-another-day-in-rugby-20200820


A shitstorm is brewing in SA over that Pre match sale game.

It ****** me off that people think you should be forced to support, the popular culture fad of the month. It's basically auth right politicians and citizens posing as lib left. Claiming moral upper ground and vilifying any contrasting opinions. It's a culture of shame and shade throwing. If you are one of the people throwing shade for personal choices made, then I consider you a disgusting human being.

It's literally a majority opressing the opinions of a minority.

Luckily the minister is getting a lot of heat from opposition parties and trade unions, I see the DA and the FF+ took him apart yesterday in parliament, where they said he cannot go on a witch-hunt against these players as BLM is a political movement, and that every South African has the constitutional right to political freedom. And no politician may interfere in the workplace and enforce a worker to do so.

Should anything happen to the players, I know that there will be a court case against Mthethwa. There is more than enough evidence that he has overstepped here...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Someone should ask that guy if he thinks Manu Tuilagi is a racist as well

 

[OldWallaseyan]

A breath of fresh air from the sycophantic UK politically correct brainwashing in the UK. At least someone brave enough to think for themselves and not jump on the bandwagon in support of some people in search of easy money. What about James McClean the Irish footballer- refuses to stand for ‘ God Save The Queen’ because he receives dearh threats, abuse Every day because he is Irish...no mention on the BBC or in the Guardian....*****!

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

I can understand why questions are being asked about why a group of white players, all from a country that has had one of the most recent and highly-publicised regimes of racial discrimination, unanimously chose not to kneel as a show of support to the BLM movement. However, if their reasoning was that taking a knee would contravene their religious beliefs, this is clearly a non-issue. The focus should be on the fact that they wore the "Rugby Against Racism" T-shirts, clearly showing support, and are totally entitled to uphold their religious beliefs whilst doing so. For anyone who supports BLM to argue otherwise would be insanely hypocritical.

The one instance where I can see this blowing up into more of an issue is if a distinction is made by the players between supporting Rugby Against Racism vs BLM. Similar to an All Lives Matter vs BLM debate. Having worked and lived in SA, I've seen the impact of the Black Economic Empowerment movement and the resentment it causes amongst some white South Africans, who are marginalised in the workplace due to the actions of previous generations - on an individual level it feels and is unquestionably unfair. On a macro-level, I personally believe it's a necessary short-term evil to create a more equal society in the longer term, but I can totally appreciate that this is little comfort to the individuals who are directly and negatively impacted. For that reason, I can imagine a scenario where these players might reject a request to kneel in support of BLM because they feel, in South Africa at least, that Black Lives have been prioritised over White Lives for most of their lives. If this is the case, I think the media and public reaction in SA will be very negative. Of course, I have no evidence whatsoever to suggest that this is the case, so it is pure conjecture at this point and, in all likelihood, I think religious beliefs will be cited as the reason for not kneeling.

I'd be interested to hear from the SA-based members whether my observations of BEE from my time there ring true.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I can understand why questions are being asked about why a group of white players, all from a country that has had one of the most recent and highly-publicised regimes of racial discrimination, unanimously chose not to kneel as a show of support to the BLM movement. However, if their reasoning was that taking a knee would contravene their religious beliefs, this is clearly a non-issue. The focus should be on the fact that they wore the "Rugby Against Racism" T-shirts, clearly showing support, and are totally entitled to uphold their religious beliefs whilst doing so. For anyone who supports BLM to argue otherwise would be insanely hypocritical.

The one instance where I can see this blowing up into more of an issue is if a distinction is made by the players between supporting Rugby Against Racism vs BLM. Similar to an All Lives Matter vs BLM debate. Having worked and lived in SA, I've seen the impact of the Black Economic Empowerment movement and the resentment it causes amongst some white South Africans, who are marginalised in the workplace due to the actions of previous generations - on an individual level it feels and is unquestionably unfair. On a macro-level, I personally believe it's a necessary short-term evil to create a more equal society in the longer term, but I can totally appreciate that this is little comfort to the individuals who are directly and negatively impacted. For that reason, I can imagine a scenario where these players might reject a request to kneel in support of BLM because they feel, in South Africa at least, that Black Lives have been prioritised over White Lives for most of their lives. If this is the case, I think the media and public reaction in SA will be very negative. Of course, I have no evidence whatsoever to suggest that this is the case, so it is pure conjecture at this point and, in all likelihood, I think religious beliefs will be cited as the reason for not kneeling.

I'd be interested to hear from the SA-based members whether my observations of BEE from my time there ring true.

BEE is a big issue, and becoming an even bigger issue with the corruption, nepotism and unfair economic advantages it's creating. We see regularly how people with absolutely no credentials, or expertise win multi-million rand contracts from the government, and then 5 years later, didn't do a single thing they were appointed in doing, then they launch an investigation, do a few bribes, and then it all goes away and nobody stands accountable.

But the BLM, Racism in sport and the fact that people are not kneeling has nothing to do with BEE, and is something on a completely different scale. I think the transformation/quota system, might be more of an issue here, even though I don't think any of the guys who wore the shirts would say anything against it, maybe just Jono Ross, as he's the only one that doesn't have a springbok cap...

 

[dullonien]

Out of interest where has the 'not allowed to kneel due to religious beliefs' thing come from? Don't think I've ever heard of that before. Is it a well known part of Christian teachings, or is this simply the first time the issue has been brought to attention?

 

[Gavin]

Out of interest where has the 'not allowed to kneel due to religious beliefs' thing come from? Don't think I've ever heard of that before. Is it a well known part of Christian teachings, or is this simply the first time the issue has been brought to attention?

True Christians will only take the knee for God - or that's what they argue.

Genuflection or genuflexion is the act of bending a knee to the ground, as distinguished from kneeling which more strictly involves both knees. From early times, it has been a gesture of deep respect for a superior. Today, the gesture is common in the Christian religious practices of the Anglican Church,[1] Lutheran Church,[2] Roman Catholic Church,[3] and Western Rite Orthodox Church

Genuflection is a sign of reverence to the Blessed Sacrament. Its purpose is to allow the worshipper to engage his whole person in acknowledging the presence of and to honor Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genuflection

 

[ncurd]

True Christians will only take the knee for God - or that's what they argue.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genuflection

There is nothing in there prohibiting them from doing before anyone else or for another cause or even if that is a genuinely taught belief. Think its got far more to do with either "you can't make me do something" or "I don't really support this" (note not saying they are racist, some people are really really blind to the fact racial injustice even still exists). Lets put it this way anyone who has not taken a knee actually been a genuine surprise?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Out of interest where has the 'not allowed to kneel due to religious beliefs' thing come from? Don't think I've ever heard of that before. Is it a well known part of Christian teachings, or is this simply the first time the issue has been brought to attention?

Well, in South Africa it's general practice to kneel when praying. So I guess that's just how it evolved.

And you see the rugby players always running on the field and taking a knee and pray before the game starts.

 

[unrated]

The one instance where I can see this blowing up into more of an issue is if a distinction is made by the players between supporting Rugby Against Racism vs BLM. Similar to an All Lives Matter vs BLM debate. Having worked and lived in SA, I've seen the impact of the Black Economic Empowerment movement and the resentment it causes amongst some white South Africans, who are marginalised in the workplace due to the actions of previous generations - on an individual level it feels and is unquestionably unfair. On a macro-level, I personally believe it's a necessary short-term evil to create a more equal society in the longer term, but I can totally appreciate that this is little comfort to the individuals who are directly and negatively impacted. For that reason, I can imagine a scenario where these players might reject a request to kneel in support of BLM because they feel, in South Africa at least, that Black Lives have been prioritised over White Lives for most of their lives. If this is the case, I think the media and public reaction in SA will be very negative. Of course, I have no evidence whatsoever to suggest that this is the case, so it is pure conjecture at this point and, in all likelihood, I think religious beliefs will be cited as the reason for not kneeling.

I'd be interested to hear from the SA-based members whether my observations of BEE from my time there ring true.

You seem to have a good grasp of many peoples feelings in South Africa. Pretty much spot on. And the the players might also not want to be pressurized to take part in a politisized movement coming from a country where politics always tries to interfere in sport, and indirectly against them.

 

[mdaclarke]

I can;t wait for the Rugby to start in earnest and hopefully all this stuff will go by the wayside

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Bit rich for some members of the South African government to jump on the racism bandwagon when it is well known their party is full of anti-white racists. For the South African players in particular they may be loathe to take the knee when they can see what the black government of SA is doing to people of their colour and their sport. Also what I feared would happen is happening, BLM has gone from supporting black Americans against police brutality to demanding everyone carry out certain acts or be branded a racist. Demanding people don't do things is one thing but demanding people do things is a different matter altogether.

The worst bit is that the original message is getting lost and resentment is actually growing against BLM now because of it. The more people make this mandatory and hammer people to do it, the more people will oppose it. People simply do not like being told what to do and threatened if they don't. I support BLM but if anyone told me to take a knee or face consequences I'd tell them to **** off.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Bit rich for some members of the South African government to jump on the racism bandwagon when it is well known their party is full of anti-white racists. For the South African players in particular they may be loathe to take the knee when they can see what the black government of SA is doing to people of their colour and their sport. Also what I feared would happen is happening, BLM has gone from supporting black Americans against police brutality to demanding everyone carry out certain acts or be branded a racist. Demanding people don't do things is one thing but demanding people do things is a different matter altogether.

The worst bit is that the original message is getting lost and resentment is actually growing against BLM now because of it. The more people make this mandatory and hammer people to do it, the more people will oppose it. People simply do not like being told what to do and threatened if they don't. I support BLM but if anyone told me to take a knee or face consequences I'd tell them to **** off.

Careful now. Remarks like "their colour" and "their sport" won't go down well, as the message these guys are trying to portray is that it's "every colour's" and "everyone's sport".

Also, these guys didn't take the knee because of their religion, but also because the people supporting the BLM movement, are burning bibles and damaging churches.

Yes, the BLM movement has lost meaning, in that it was supposed to be a movement against police brutality. But the name of the movement alone is causing this uproar, in that it's portraying that Black Lives Matter, but it's also indirectly saying that other lives don't? And people are taking it way too literally. And from there it has spread to other countries to show how racism is still i big issue (if not the biggest) and how this movement is unnecessarily dividing people.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Lot of good comments here.

Bottom line though is that in the UK Joe Bloggs won’t think about it that deeply and just take away the headline image which isn’t a good look full stop and could easily be twisted into something more sinister by those with an agenda.

I think this is a highly personal issue and I would be deeply resentful if my employer pressured me to put forward a view in the public arena like this, irrespective of whether I agreed with the cause or not.

But if it had to be done (a whole different argument), wendyball got it right with everyone united. Last weekend was not the Premiership’s finest hour.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Lot of good comments here.

Bottom line though is that in the UK Joe Bloggs won’t think about it that deeply and just take away the headline image which isn’t a good look full stop and could easily be twisted into something more sinister by those with an agenda.

I think this is a highly personal issue and I would be deeply resentful if my employer pressured me to put forward a view in the public arena like this, irrespective of whether I agreed with the cause or not.

But if it had to be done (a whole different argument), wendyball got it right with everyone united. Last weekend was not the Premiership’s finest hour.

The thing is though, the employer isn't pressuring any of them.

It's government...

 

[ncurd]

But the name of the movement alone is causing this uproar, in that it's portraying that Black Lives Matter, but it's also indirectly saying that other lives don't? And people are taking it way too literally.

Its not because of what its about which is racial inequality and specifically formed from the statistics stating the likelihood of a black person being killed by police (in America) compared to that of a white person. Anyone who think it indirectly is saying other lives don't matter aren't really trying to engage on the point being made.

But if it had to be done (a whole different argument), wendyball got it right with everyone united. Last weekend was not the Premiership’s finest hour.

I dunno it wasn't the utter farce that was F1 and even then its still a bit of a mess. They'd probably have done a lot better if just Lewis kneeled with everyone supportive behind him. Instead they this weird mix and before they started it some drivers release incredibly badly worded messages to why they weren't doing. Cricket got it pretty much spot on.


However at sporting events in general I am worried about when do the gestures stop? TBH I'm I want to hear more now about how they are going to go about fixing things from their perspective.

 

[WaterboySA]

Maybe this will give some clarity. For Christians that are serious about their religion, there is certain verses in the bible that means a lot. No, it is not more correct than others, I'm not going there. I'm just saying, it means a lot....one of those verses, maybe one of those with the most meaning, is Romans 14:11, " For it is written, As I live, said the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. " That is why the England player said he felt uncomfortable doing it. It does not say bowing for anything else is wrong. It is a personal thing. Taking the knee is reserved...This is just trying to give understanding, I'm not trying to convince anyone.

Then, on a more personal note. I believe all people are equal. I believe racism is wrong. As a Christian I believe it's a sin, and if you die with ANY racism in your heart, you're in trouble. BUT, I'm also not ashamed to say I DO NOT SUPPORT BLM. I do not agree with that organization's actions. Have a great day guys....