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[2024 TRC] New Zealand vs Argentina - 10/08/24

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Jaguares

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Venue: Sky stadium
City: Wellington
Country: New Zealand
Capacity: 34,500

All Blacks starting XV:

15 Beauden Barrett
14 Sevu Reece
13 Anton Lienert-Brown
12 Jordie Barrett
11 Mark Telea
10 Damian McKenzie
9 TJ Perenara
8 Ardie Savea (c)
7 Dalton Papali’i
6 Ethan Blackadder
5 Sam Darry
4 Tupou Vaa’i
3 Tyrel Lomas
2 Codie Taylor
1 Ethan de Groot

16 Asafo Aumua
17 Osa Tu’ungafasi
18 Fletcher Newell
19 Josh Lord
20 Wallace Sititi
21 Cortez Ratima
22 Will Jordan
23 Rieko Ioane

Head coach: Scott Robertson

The Pumas starting XV:

1 Thomas Gallo
2 Ignacio Ruiz
3 Eduardo Bello
4 Franco Molina
5 Pedro Rubiolo
6 Pablo Matera (c)
7 Marcos Kremer
8 Juan Martin Gonzalez
9 Gonzalo Bertranou
10 Santiago Carreras
11 Mateo Carreras
12 Santiago Chocobares
13 Lucio Cinti
14 Matias Moroni
15 Juan Cruz Mallia

16 Agustin Creevy
17 Mayco Vivas
18 Joel Sclavi
19 Efrain Elias
20 Tomas Lavanini
21 Joaquin Oviedo
22 Lautaro Bazan Velez
23 Tomas Albornoz

Head coach: Felipe Contepomi
 
Would love the Pumas to really take it to the All Blacks and push them for 80 minutes - this is a game where NZ will either score 2/3 tries early and kill the contest before it starts, or Argentina will get into them and make it a real dogfight of a game. ABs should win by 20.
 
I thought any shoulder to head contact was a minimum yellow card.

Claiming the Argentina player ran into the New Zealand defender's shoulder is a bit weak considering they were making the tackle and should have been lower.
 
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Think Razor and a lot of ABs fans have just been handed a massive reality check. They are going to cop some defeats this year. Those two games in SA are going to be grisly.
 
Magnificent feat of the pumas.
Congratulations for this beautiful and highly deserved victory.
I suppose that in the next match, the all blacks will tighten the vice and take their revenge but this defeat will have serious consequences for the rest of the competition.
Scott Robertson underestimated Argentina.
 
I thought any shoulder to head contact was a minimum yellow card.

Claiming the Argentina player ran into the New Zealand defender's shoulder is a bit weak considering they were making the tackle and should have been lower.
No, that's a common way of reffing it - if the defender is passive in the tackle then there isn't a high degree of danger
 
Thought that was a pretty good game. We lost because of our mistakes, but it wasn't exactly error ridden - the pumas just took their opportunities.

Argentina were pretty good.

I didn't think we were too bad except we need to get better at clearing (maybe utilize Jordie if he stays in the team) and need some better attack structures. our maul defence was poor which was interesting to see given Ryan went five years in super without the crusaders conceding a maul try. Maybe start aumua for some extra punch, especially as he didn't do well off the bench under pressure.

Darry was very good, especially on defence - was a good idea to utilize him for chop tackles rather than trying to go for dominant tackles. Suited him better.
 
I thought the call was ok.
I thought any shoulder to head contact was a minimum yellow card.
It's as if they are making things up as they go. I dont mind the call itself, but from a consistency point of view it's kinda sad.
Strictly speaking he did follow the protocol

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And, most importantly

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I Think Angus got this one right.
 
Scott Robertson underestimated Argentina.
Doubt it, but the players sure did.

Some of them look like they're still scarred from the Foster era. The only reason they reached a WC final was because they were underdogs in a QF for the first time ever and then Ireland choked.

Well done Argies. In an ideal world they kick on from here and finish at least 2nd in the comp but now watch them lose twice to Australia.
 
The only reason they reached a WC final was because they were underdogs in a QF for the first time ever and then Ireland choked.

My two cents. Not sure i agree. The problem with NZ lately (world cup or now) is consistency and your 'lows'. You mentioned Ireland. NZ performing at their best today/at the world cup are/were better than Ireland imo.
Thing is that Ireland is better on an average day (as in not your best day). You both had a good game game against each other (WC).

The 'magical' thing the All Blacks brought to the table, i mean historically, was that you rarely had a bad game. Your lows were high enough to beat everyone but 1-2 teams. Your highs are not the problem, you still have that in you.
 
Always a good day when New Zealand lose. Nice one Argentina. Makes the competition a lot more interesting. Of course watch New Zealand win it still! lol
 
My two cents. Not sure i agree. The problem with NZ lately (world cup or now) is consistency and your 'lows'. You mentioned Ireland. NZ performing at their best today/at the world cup are/were better than Ireland imo.
Thing is that Ireland is better on an average day (as in not your best day). You both had a good game game against each other (WC).

The 'magical' thing the All Blacks brought to the table, i mean historically, was that you rarely had a bad game. Your lows were high enough to beat everyone but 1-2 teams. Your highs are not the problem, you still have that in you.
Agree generally.

From our perspective, watching their highs and lows over many World Cup cycles, it's mostly psychological. If our psychology is good we'll almost always win regardless of the opposition. Our problem being at World Cups we tend to choke.

My point about Ireland was that 2023 was unique. We've never gone into a World Cup QF as such underdogs before and that helped us play our best game possible (for a team coached by Fozzie) without feeling the usual pressure of expectation. Ireland didn't play their best game from what I remember.

Our level has clearly dropped though as you mention. Our lows are much lower than before. And that All Black "aura" that English pundits were talking about is gone as well. Teams just don't fear us as much as before.
 
Argentina just wanted it more, i think the AB's had some woeful play (captain block the half back at the ruck...making a socking pass to no one....Dmac clears up....and then throws a shocking pass to noone....loosing 50m and ending up in our own goal....that 3rd grade club rugby stuff)...but the Argentinans came out with more passion, more speed and more determination and deserved it

Razor made a comment along the lines of "the didnt do what we coached them to do"....and im wondering if he has a huge point, I always wondering way fozzie wasn't reviewing and fixing issues that came up in previous games....maybe he was...and then come game time they just did what they wanted

Have we got too many big personalities? too many guys that think they know better? too many not smart enough to remember what has been coached? too many that play on vibe? too many that think they'll never get dropped so dont care?
 
I want to know where all the Foster haters are? having to deal with them complaining for years about foster and how great Razor is.
This loss is worse than any of those losses under Foster, 38 points is the most NZ has conceded in NZ ever? I can already see one person still blaming Foster which is Hilarious.

You can't say Razor inherited a bad team, if not for a red card and some really unlucky/inaccurate refereeing calls they would have won a WC. Despite not winning the WC the AB's played great rugby last year.

Amazing result for Argentina, you could see as soon as the game started Argentina were playing like it was a final and really wanted it and the AB's were going through the motions. Despite that the AB's seemed to have the game under control until that slap back from Reece gifted a soft try. Then the 2nd half the AB's forwards lost parity the lineouts and Scrums were ugly, they started to concede turnovers at the breakdown and that was where the game was lost.

The bad:
I don't think Savea worked as captain, sure as a player he gave it all, but the team needed direction and don't feel like he did what was needed. it's not enough to lead by example he needs to gather, lift and focus the team and I didn't see him or anyone do that.
ball security has been an issue in all tests this year IMO. hate on Sam Cane all you want but he would visit more rucks than anyone else and secure ball which was always a thankless job. Dalton and Savea are not that type of player. Sam whitelock was another player who was a master there.
obviously, locks are a problem right now, lost Brodie and Sam, plus Scott & Patrick are injured and Josh Lord is only just making a comeback. despite that I thought they did ok as individuals it was more the forward effort, they were a part of that lacked.
Aumua - we all know what impact he can make but if he can't throw then he shouldn't be playing. Those last lineouts that were a shambles had a huge impact.
The 2 big mistakes. Reece seems to be struggling to get into games, he's been busy without making much impact. He really did overdo that slap back, but it was still unlucky. Just need to be smarter and have more patient. I'm not sure about that DMac pass, he seems to be getting the blame but the pass looked ok it just seemed to go right between the Barrett's and maybe they both thought the other was going to take it.
I'm not sold on the structure of the attack it seemed like we operated with quite short passing from 9 and again struggled to get wide but I think generally the attack was OK we just seemed to struggle securing the ball with the forwards. Again, if we are going to operate with a close in attack like that, we need people doing that Sam Cane job and be on hand to secure the ball when needed, Too many turnovers.

The Good
I think DMac is showing that when we can deliver him some good ball he will get the attack going. we really just didn't get enough of it.
ALB was the pick of the backs and Darry played well in the first half in particular. I thought Codie Taylor had a better game after being fairly quiet against England. Savea carried well and won some big turnovers. Talea was sharp.

Argentina were ruthless, could see in their intensity and some of the tactics they used that they really targeted this game.

Interesting Times, the Razor Honeymoon is basically over. We expect an AB team to build well over 5-6 weeks they have had. Razor is inexperienced in building a test team in this way, the forwards haven't turned in anything close to what would be considered a good performance. Either/or/both the lineout and scrum have been problematic and now the breakdown gets exploited. The team is 6+ weeks together now and in some ways its back to the drawing board?
 
im not biting....but i'll put my hand up as a fozzie critic and also believed razor would fix things,the first signs of being proven wrong are now out there

personally i feel the first loss and first loss at home to Argentina are "worse", maybe not in score but being the first is a big deal

the real test is what happens now, if he doesn't manage to implement change then the axe needs to fall on some players if theyre not doing what the coaches are coaching

all i will say is it will be harsh if he gets less than the four years fozzie got

side point....how bad was the crowd in wellington.....i heard there were still 10k tickets avalilable for walk ups, some will have gone but there were lots of yellow seats, chch or hamilton would have killed for games and Dunedin managed to sell out 30k
 
I only saw the first half and thought Reece mistake just put Argentina back into the game.

I am a bit surprised to see so many people doubting Razor already, at least judging by the comments I read in Stuff’articles…the guy is a serial winner at the Super Rugby level and won titles when the SA teams were playing in the competition as well…likewise, people tend to forget he lost massive test experience as Coles, Whitelock, Retallick, Smith retired and Mo’unga is playing overseas, while Barrett and Toipulotu were unavailable…

However, the only thing that really surprised me in Razor selections was that he seems to continue the wrong path Steve Hansen and Ian Foster started to walk post 2017, namely to play people out of position, which is very strange …Ardie should be playing at 7, Telea is not an 11, but a 14, etc.
 
I am a bit surprised to see so many people doubting Razor already, at least judging by the comments I read in Stuff'articles…the guy is a serial winner at the Super Rugby level and won ***les when the SA teams were playing in the competition as well…likewise, people tend to forget he lost massive test experience as Coles, Whitelock, Retallick, Smith retired and Mo'unga is playing overseas, while Barrett and Toipulotu were unavailable…
NZ media knows exactly how to push people's buttons so it creates a general sense of delusion among AB fans, whether we're winning or losing.

When we lose, it's a national tragedy, so the overreactions are always going to come out.
 
I want to know where all the Foster haters are?
Never hated him but I'm right here buddy.

having to deal with them complaining for years about foster and how great Razor is.
This loss is worse than any of those losses under Foster
This is a joke right? Fozzie was the one who lost to Argentina for the first time ever. Pretty poor performance that day against a weaker Argentina team than this.

38 points is the most NZ has conceded in NZ ever?
They also scored 30 and were reasonably in control of the game for 60 minutes so not a hiding by any means.
Fozzie however presided over a 40-25 humiliation in Paris. If you think this performance was worse than that horror show then I want what you're smoking.

You seem to be forgetting just how bad the Foster era was: dude lost 6 out of 8 test matches and somehow still kept his job. You're completely delusional if you think the Razor era is already comparable to that.
 
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Losing by 8 to a team that just made the Semi-finals is something that is going to happen. I could see going crazy if they lose 3 out of 6 or something but you are gonna lose games. NZ media does a good job of stirring up their own people if the team has a hiccup.
 

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