WRU confirm they want to reduce to two pro teams

[dullonien]

I agree with pretty much all of this, except for the final part...

Rugby is dying globally, other sports are more exciting and are marketed better.

Every time world rugby overly complicated another rule, it alienates more potential fans. Look at the current crop, feeding in the scrum, no contest in the lineouts, the ******* 20 minute red card, its just piling more complexities on top of bad rule changes in an attempt to fix their mistake.

The breakdown has become a first there wins, with counter rucking no longer allowed, the tackle area is a mess, scrums ruin atmosphere and speed of game, the try checks are the same... rugby needs to be simplified, made easier to enjoy for the neutral, easier to ref and easier to follow.

The WRU has compounded these problems with their community rules, their lack of investment in schools and clubs, and compounded the cock up that was regional rugby with decision after decision that only benefits them! I honestly dont see an argument that Rugby is Wales national sport any more.

But back to the 2 region debacle, how would alienating the few club fans left, and leaving 2 'super' clubs (hahahaha) in Cardiff and Swansea play in empty small stadiums help?

I agree radical change is needed, I just dont think pooling our failing recourses, which is what we did with regionalism in the first place, remaking the mistakes of the past, is the answer.

If it were up to me id go radically progressive.

Professional (as much as can be) 12 team Welsh premiership (which may be 60% semi pro, with professional contracted players for now), get everyone around the table, 3 clubs per region. Market the prem on a local basis, rivalries (**** me what are they in Wales?!) Local celebrities, with a progressive and original campaign.

When it comes to european rugby, the regions can get together to form a super squad, in an attempt to compete, keeping all 4 spots and key funding. The season can even start and end with these super squads games, a 3 weekend round Robin to start, and East v West to finish. Hell even the national team needs a revamp, we played a possibles v probables a while ago, that was a good idea, except it was never going to be a competitive game, id rather have seen 2 teams, 1st team forwards/2nd team backs vs 2nd team forwards/1st team backs.

We could start a draft system, newly qualified 20 year olds competed for by their clubs.

There are dozens of ideas that are radical but might just enthuse the nation again, and yes its a big risk, but id rather rugby dies on its feet trying to do something to survive, than survive on its knees slowly losing life. And thats whats happening in Wales, rugby in its current bloated, overly complex, overly safe, generic form that nobody is happy with club structure, is losing life, to repeat the same mistake from 20 years ago is madness!

Ignoring your thoughts on the game as a whole (which I mostly agree with re. complexity etc.), I don't think your radical idea is vastly different from the 2 region proposal.

Both have the intentions of vastly improving and celebrating the domestic SRC/premiership rivalries by supercharging this level, and making this much more of a focal point for Welsh rugby.

You then want the 'regions' to only kick in at European level (kinda like the NZ system). Would the other 'Euro' nations even allow this? How would these regions/super squads qualify if they no longer play in a league of any kind? I just don't see that being feasible, hence why I'm an advocate for a similar approach, except we keep 2 permanent regions, rather than only assembling them for Europe.

But the key is freeing up the money to not only improve the quality of those 2 regions, but to also invest into the SRC and the development pathways. This is key for me, and I don't see that happening if we keep 4 regions or going for a 3+1 or 2+2 funded model. Maybe 2+1 could be a compromise I could live with, but that +1 team would basically be Dragons level which if we're honest isn't achieving much atm - would that money be better spent on further enhancing the SRC/academy, or the other 2 regions?

 

[dirty harry]

Ignoring your thoughts on the game as a whole (which I mostly agree with re. complexity etc.), I don't think your radical idea is vastly different from the 2 region proposal.

Both have the intentions of vastly improving and celebrating the domestic SRC/premiership rivalries by supercharging this level, and making this much more of a focal point for Welsh rugby.

You then want the 'regions' to only kick in at European level (kinda like the NZ system). Would the other 'Euro' nations even allow this? How would these regions/super squads qualify if they no longer play in a league of any kind? I just don't see that being feasible, hence why I'm an advocate for a similar approach, except we keep 2 permanent regions, rather than only assembling them for Europe.

But the key is freeing up the money to not only improve the quality of those 2 regions, but to also invest into the SRC and the development pathways. This is key for me, and I don't see that happening if we keep 4 regions or going for a 3+1 or 2+2 funded model. Maybe 2+1 could be a compromise I could live with, but that +1 team would basically be Dragons level which if we're honest isn't achieving much atm - would that money be better spent on further enhancing the SRC/academy, or the other 2 regions?

But do you agree that dropping to 2 teams, is the same mistake as regionalisation in the first place?

I just dont see how consolidation is anything other than regionalisation, or a slow death of rugby...

 

[dullonien]

But do you agree that dropping to 2 teams, is the same mistake as regionalisation in the first place?

I just dont see how consolidation is anything other than regionalisation, or a slow death of rugby...

Regionalism wasn't necessarily a mistake for me. There was no way Wales could support 9 fully professional sides at the time, so a restructuring was required.

The mistake made was to allow a select few of the old clubs to hold the game to ransom, resulting in super clubs, rather than proper regions. Now the parochial nature of Welsh rugby was a huge strength in the amateur era, but proved challenging when it came to consolidating down to 5 then 4 sides. But 'true regions', if such a thing can exist in Wales, would have been the better approach, and not this mess of super clubs masquerading as regions.

It may still have worked if the levels below the regions weren't entirely neglected. The early signs were positive with Ospreys, Blues and Scarlets all competitive at various stages, but the mismanagement of the pathways (both feeder clubs and academies) by both the regions themselves and WRU means we are where we are.

Do I think reducing to 2 is making the same mistake? Only if it were done in isolation. If it's done properly, in line with what Reddin has outlined, with significant improvements made to SRC and player pathways, then I genuinely think it could be successful.

But I also wouldn't want them to stand still, put a plan in place to expand again when, hopefully, resources (money and players) allow. I'd personally love to see the Valleys properly represented again, and for North Wales to be inclided. The viability of both is questionable, but it would be a better spread than what we currently have, and would better represent the whole of Wales.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Squad is announced today.

Beard captain? Let’s go!

 

[AlRums]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/c0qp15xpkzqo

 

[dirty harry]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/c0qp15xpkzqo

I mean this in the most respectful terms:

Moffett is an absolute c.unt who should not be allowed anywhere near a rugby pitch for the rest of his miserable short life!!!!

I know that seems hateful, but I dont care, he is an absolute ******* twat bag!

 

[Rugbyfan564]

 

[higgik]

Cop out at all levels by the WRU.
Should have stuck to their guns on 2 teams.
Ideally no club affiliation, just top 70 players available get a contract.
The current clubs would drop into a much more competitive SRC.
It would also allow them to set up friendlies with Prem clubs.

 

[dirty harry]

There are just no words, the WRU have been on a 100 year mission to eradicate rugby from Wales, and they are very close to succeeding!

Someone turn the lights off on your way out

 

[dirty harry]

Cop out at all levels by the WRU.
Should have stuck to their guns on 2 teams.
Ideally no club affiliation, just top 70 players available get a contract.
The current clubs would drop into a much more competitive SRC.
It would also allow them to set up friendlies with Prem clubs.

No club affiliation? So east wales playing in Cardiff in Blue?

West wales playing at PYS in red?

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm pleased we're not completely shafting ourselves from a player pathway point of view. Only half shafting ourselves instead. Like shooting yourself in the dick instead of the head.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Cop out at all levels by the WRU.
Should have stuck to their guns on 2 teams.
Ideally no club affiliation, just top 70 players available get a contract.
The current clubs would drop into a much more competitive SRC.
It would also allow them to set up friendlies with Prem clubs.

Apparently the URC opposed the drop to 2.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cze61rw12rko

 

[Rugbyfan564]

MPs on the Welsh Affairs committee will question the WRU in January on the outcome of its consultation on the future of Welsh rugby in an evidence session.

 

[dirty harry]

I'm pleased we're not completely shafting ourselves from a player pathway point of view. Only half shafting ourselves instead. Like shooting yourself in the dick instead of the head.

Have you ever considered writing childeens books, you have a way with words!

 

[higgik]

No club affiliation? So east wales playing in Cardiff in Blue?

West wales playing at PYS in red?

Well sort of.
How about
Cardiff Dragons playing in Red, Black and white.
Swansea Bay TSUNAMI playing in white, mauve and sky, (like the City Region)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well sort of.
How about
Cardiff Dragons playing in Red, Black and white.
Swansea Bay TSUNAMI playing in white, mauve and sky, (like the City Region)

Have to completely disassociate from previous clubs.

"The Cardiff (and more) Sabertooth Tigers" should do it.

 

[dirty harry]

Well sort of.
How about
Cardiff Dragons playing in Red, Black and white.
Swansea Bay TSUNAMI playing in white, mauve and sky, (like the City Region)

Its a nice idea, but 90% of the Dragons and cardiff sesson ticket holders i speak to will relinquish i think. Certanly the section at Cardiff im in we havnt found a person who will renew their ticket, well there is one but i think hes all bulster.

Its hard enough now, every blwdi game 7.45 on saturday nights, cant take the kids, first home gamenin day light is boxing day ffs.

Theres a lot of reasons not to go to Cardiff rugby, and its getting harder and harder to justify. Even if fans accepted the 2 team solution, noone in newport qill travel to cardiff and vice versa, no new fans will come through the doors, itll just be a lesser version of what cardiff have now.

I think people think consolidating to 2 will mean higher quality playing squads, full stadiums, extra funding etc... but that wont be the reality, it will seem fun for those who stay after the fallout for 4/5 years, while squad quality declines, welsh rugby cant afford to keep upping the funding to keep up with the others, and 10 years from now we will be in the exsct same position, except lesser crowds, and much less funds coming in.

 

[dullonien]

So we finally know! Dragons really need to start winning to justify them staying, because it's difficult when they barely win..

No idea how you go about merging, or deciding which of the Ospreys ans Scarlets stay. Makes more sense to base the side in Swansea, but what then happens to PyS? I don't personally care about the 'history' stuff that Scarlets fans spout, as that's Llanelli RFC's history, not Scarlets.

I'd personally prefer to see a brand new team set-up, but can understand why keeping one of the existing entities would be sensible too. Attendances are poor at both though, so it's not an ideal starting base.

Edit. The issue with the 3 team solution, East, Capital. and West, as they've framed it, is how can it be fully justified. I think a 2 team solution can be better justified as then you've got proper East and West teams. Calling Cardiff the capital side is just a bit of a cop out with its proximity with Newport. Also Dragons have done the least of the 4 on the field to justify their survival above Ospreys and Scarlets.

Imo, the 2 region option was the chance at true revolution, whearas the 3 regions still alienates a big percentage of fans, but won't free up the resources to truly bring about change. This decision feels more like the incremental decline that Dirty Harry has been preaching about.

 

[mdaclarke]

Clear to me that it will be the following

1. One team in Swansea playing at St Helens
2. One team in Cardiff playing at the Arms Park
3. One team in Newport playing at Rodney Parade.

Apparently the URC need to agree it. They will want another team to fill the conference. I imagine the South Africans will try to shoehorn the Cheetahs in.

 

[dirty harry]

So we finally know! Dragons really need to start winning to justify them staying, because it's difficult when they barely win..

No idea how you go about merging, or deciding which of the Ospreys ans Scarlets stay. Makes more sense to base the side in Swansea, but what then happens to PyS? I don't personally care about the 'history' stuff that Scarlets fans spout, as that's Llanelli RFC's history, not Scarlets.

I'd personally prefer to see a brand new team set-up, but can understand why keeping one of the existing entities would be sensible too. Attendances are poor at both though, so it's not an ideal starting base.

Edit. The issue with the 3 team solution, East, Capital. and West, as they've framed it, is how can it be fully justified. I think a 2 team solution can be better justified as then you've got proper East and West teams. Calling Cardiff the capital side is just a bit of a cop out with its proximity with Newport. Also Dragons have done the least of the 4 on the field to justify their survival above Ospreys and Scarlets.

Imo, the 2 region option was the chance at true revolution, whearas the 3 regions still alienates a big percentage of fans, but won't free up the resources to truly bring about change. This decision feels more like the incremental decline that Dirty Harry has been preaching about.

Im having a read now, i think they want the 2 state solution i mean oops team.

They talked about 2 teams, saw the backlash and decided on 3, in a cowardly reaction IMO. This all feels staged, and coercive, like the WRU already had a plan before the 'consultation'

 

[Bluemoon]

Clear to me that it will be the following

1. One team in Swansea playing at St Helens
2. One team in Cardiff playing at the Arms Park
3. One team in Newport playing at Rodney Parade.

Apparently the URC need to agree it. They will want another team to fill the conference. I imagine the South Africans will try to shoehorn the Cheetahs in.

It could also be a merger between Os and Cardiff, with 'central' being those pathways.

Gwent is already a huge pathway (it's not just about success it's about playing numbers/pathways) and scarlets at PYS (much better than St Helens) would be west and north as it pretty much is now.

Strong rumour that Y11 (O's owners) looking to buy Cardiff so it's possible. Or O's vanish entirely leaving scarlets to pick up the O's pathway.

 

[dullonien]

It could also be a merger between Os and Cardiff, with 'central' being those pathways.

Gwent is already a huge pathway (it's not just about success it's about playing numbers/pathways) and scarlets at PYS (much better than St Helens) would be west and north as it pretty much is now.

Strong rumour that Y11 (O's owners) looking to buy Cardiff so it's possible. Or O's vanish entirely leaving scarlets to pick up the O's pathway.

Geographically that would make a lot of sense, but it leaves two pretty weak teams in East and West.

I know the Gwent pathway is big, but it hasn't been producing many international quality players, and Scarlets are looking worse currently. Cardiff and Ospreys are currently producing the vast magority of the players, so merging them possibly wouldn't be ideal from a player pathway side.

I suppose one of the aims of this restructuring is too address the pathways, so maybe this can be ignored with the hope it improves in East and West going forwards. But I'm still not at all convinced that Llanelli is big enough to support a truly successful region drawing big crowds, even including some of the surrounding towns/villages like Ammanford and Carmarthen. Not when Swansea is right next door.

 

[Bluemoon]

Geographically that would make a lot of sense, but it leaves two pretty weak teams in East and West.

I know the Gwent pathway is big, but it hasn't been producing many international quality players, and Scarlets are looking worse currently. Cardiff and Ospreys are currently producing the vast magority of the players, so merging them possibly wouldn't be ideal from a player pathway side.

I suppose one of the aims of this restructuring is too address the pathways, so maybe this can be ignored with the hope it improves in East and West going forwards. But I'm still not at all convinced that Llanelli is big enough to support a truly successful region drawing big crowds, even including some of the surrounding towns/villages like Ammanford and Carmarthen. Not when Swansea is right next door.

I agree about the gwent pathways professional player numbers, they have some really good rugby thriving areas with what I understand have positive playing numbers. If there's genuine investment in coaching and the pathway itself it's likely wise to keep something in the true east. Monmouth, Caerphilly, Newport all have some rugby hotbeds. I get the sense some of the players coming through that pathway have been let down by the issues at the pro end.

I struggle with east and west, even though it seems to make sense and make the club game almost pro, there just seems to be so much that'd need to be worked out at a commercial level and I don't think the WRU are the org with the skills to do it. That's probably why I am nervous about it!

I don't think Cardiff are nailed on yet. The WRU have been very careful in their wording of 'there will be a club in Cardiff' - it still doesn't mean it'll be Cardiff. The issue of their financial position is a red herring, as is past success of other teams per se. It's all about the pathway and the impact commercially. I wonder if the existing teams go would that impact on whether TV deals would lessen as there's risk that there'd be less interest etc.

 

[higgik]

Its a nice idea, but 90% of the Dragons and cardiff sesson ticket holders i speak to will relinquish i think. Certanly the section at Cardiff im in we havnt found a person who will renew their ticket, well there is one but i think hes all bulster.

Its hard enough now, every blwdi game 7.45 on saturday nights, cant take the kids, first home gamenin day light is boxing day ffs.

Theres a lot of reasons not to go to Cardiff rugby, and its getting harder and harder to justify. Even if fans accepted the 2 team solution, noone in newport qill travel to cardiff and vice versa, no new fans will come through the doors, itll just be a lesser version of what cardiff have now.

I think people think consolidating to 2 will mean higher quality playing squads, full stadiums, extra funding etc... but that wont be the reality, it will seem fun for those who stay after the fallout for 4/5 years, while squad quality declines, welsh rugby cant afford to keep upping the funding to keep up with the others, and 10 years from now we will be in the exsct same position, except lesser crowds, and much less funds coming in.

So, there is left the only choice.
Go back to parochial club rugby, with less funding.
The result will be the same... the death of Welsh Rugby.
Talented players will be picked up by French and English clubs, the standard will suffer and the game will die.
Welsh fans have to understand support pro rugby or die.

 

[higgik]

So we finally know! Dragons really need to start winning to justify them staying, because it's difficult when they barely win..

No idea how you go about merging, or deciding which of the Ospreys ans Scarlets stay. Makes more sense to base the side in Swansea, but what then happens to PyS? I don't personally care about the 'history' stuff that Scarlets fans spout, as that's Llanelli RFC's history, not Scarlets.

I'd personally prefer to see a brand new team set-up, but can understand why keeping one of the existing entities would be sensible too. Attendances are poor at both though, so it's not an ideal starting base.

Edit. The issue with the 3 team solution, East, Capital. and West, as they've framed it, is how can it be fully justified. I think a 2 team solution can be better justified as then you've got proper East and West teams. Calling Cardiff the capital side is just a bit of a cop out with its proximity with Newport. Also Dragons have done the least of the 4 on the field to justify their survival above Ospreys and Scarlets.

Imo, the 2 region option was the chance at true revolution, whearas the 3 regions still alienates a big percentage of fans, but won't free up the resources to truly bring about change. This decision feels more like the incremental decline that Dirty Harry has been preaching about.

Exactly and a true cop out by the WRU.

 

[higgik]

Clear to me that it will be the following

1. One team in Swansea playing at St Helens
2. One team in Cardiff playing at the Arms Park
3. One team in Newport playing at Rodney Parade.

Apparently the URC need to agree it. They will want another team to fill the conference. I imagine the South Africans will try to shoehorn the Cheetahs in.

Think that could be why only 1 team being dropped, as there is not another team ready to step up.

 

[dirty harry]

So, there is left the only choice.
Go back to parochial club rugby, with less funding.
The result will be the same... the death of Welsh Rugby.
Talented players will be picked up by French and English clubs, the standard will suffer and the game will die.
Welsh fans have to understand support pro rugby or die.

Well we are in the death throws, theres no expanding once we drop to 3, then 2, then 1, before we are fighting it out with theblikes of Germany in 6 nations 2.

The problem isnt teams, its in the ability to create revenue, and grow with the global game, reducing pro clubs doesnt solve the issue, it just delays the inevitable.

I think the only 2 options that have the tiniest opportunity of a future is to drop to a 12 team welsh league, who unify as 4 regions come european time, or negotiate the entry into the English system.

All 4 welsh teams into the English 2nd tier, with a proper promotion and relegation system to the prem of say 2 per season, and lets have it right out.

I just dont care about 90% of games in the URC, Irish, Scottish teams coming to olay have little travel support, and not particularly interesting, and italian and SA have nothing to offer as a spectacle. Irish and SA teams have the financial muscle to dominate for 50 years, with the odd freak season.

The fact is if we drop to 2 teas we will have to impliment a scottish strategy, ofnidentifying any Welsh qualified players overseas and bring them in en masse to see what makes it.

Its a sad time, we fave extinction

 

[mdaclarke]

Well we are in the death throws, theres no expanding once we drop to 3, then 2, then 1, before we are fighting it out with theblikes of Germany in 6 nations 2.

The problem isnt teams, its in the ability to create revenue, and grow with the global game, reducing pro clubs doesnt solve the issue, it just delays the inevitable.

I think the only 2 options that have the tiniest opportunity of a future is to drop to a 12 team welsh league, who unify as 4 regions come european time, or negotiate the entry into the English system.

All 4 welsh teams into the English 2nd tier, with a proper promotion and relegation system to the prem of say 2 per season, and lets have it right out.

I just dont care about 90% of games in the URC, Irish, Scottish teams coming to olay have little travel support, and not particularly interesting, and italian and SA have nothing to offer as a spectacle. Irish and SA teams have the financial muscle to dominate for 50 years, with the odd freak season.

The fact is if we drop to 2 teas we will have to impliment a scottish strategy, ofnidentifying any Welsh qualified players overseas and bring them in en masse to see what makes it.

Its a sad time, we fave extinction

I don't think there is anything wrong with the URC, the Scottish, Irish and Italians are thriving. I think the problem is the way the sport is run in Wales. There is too much money being paid to semi-pro teams. This money needs to be concentrated in the URC team.

All the talk of the Welsh playing in the English pyramid is for the birds. The English will never agree it.

It is the same as me claiming I'm going to shack up with Dakota Johnson, I may really really want it, but she is never going to be interested. I am Wales and Dakota Johnson is England.

 

[dirty harry]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the URC, the Scottish, Irish and Italians are thriving. I think the problem is the way the sport is run in Wales. There is too much money being paid to semi-pro teams. This money needs to be concentrated in the URC team.

All the talk of the Welsh playing in the English pyramid is for the birds. The English will never agree it.

It is the same as me claiming I'm going to shack up with Dakota Johnson, I may really really want it, but she is never going to be interested. I am Wales and Dakota Johnson is England.

Are you a regular attendee at a region? Do yiu enjoy the away fan interaction?

 

[mdaclarke]

Are you a regular attendee at a region? Do yiu enjoy the away fan interaction?

No but I enjoy watching it on TV and pay to subscribe to watch it.

I have been to some Cardiff games and enjoyed them. But not many.

If there was a problem with the URC then the Scottish, Italian and Irish wouldn't be thriving. How can they make a success of it and Wales can't? It's too easy to just blame the URC.

Also there appears to be a belief in Wales that the English are somehow legally or morally obliged to admit them into their league system. Newsflash! The English do have a say in it! They see themselves as a big enough country to stand on their own 2 feet rather than needing Wales. They are more likely to admit clubs like the Worcester Warriors than accept Welsh clubs into the pyramid. Also admitting the welsh clubs will completely close off the English pyramid as what happens if the Welsh clubs get relegated?