• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

South Africa vs England - 04/07/26

The Rugby Forum - Global Rugby Union News, Six Nations & RWC Discussion

Help Support The Rugby Forum:

I'm not looking forward to next week for Scotland, at least got the opportunity of more time to acclimatise to the altitude.
 
Saintjay said:
Please let me know what Borths say is his post match interview. Then I can repeatedly punch myself in the balls.

Off to watch some of the Canada match till Scotlands game.
Click to expand...
Read any losing statement from the six nations, he's like trump, just repeats himself.
 
Well as expected we suck. No structure, no discipline (I think that’s because the players don’t trust the system) and more importantly no improvement in the 4 years Borthwick has been in charge.

What will it take for Borthwick to go!
 
Well yet another world cup cycle and generation of rugby players to write off due to the top of the RFU being ******* spineless amateurs who have no idea how to select a head coach and a head coach who'd be out of his depth in the middle of the Sahara.
 
We’re just not remotely near SA’s level, no-one is. I thought we’d lose badly but in attack we’re just so uninspiring. Discipline was awful yet again too. I don’t see what we’re trying to do, which after 4 years of this coach is damning.
 
Tomma235 said:
But whose fault was it that went to 13 men? It's like saying we would have won if SA had stayed in the pub
Click to expand...
I am not saying SA won because England went down to 13. I am pointing out that this trashing was not inevitable. SA needed penalties and scrums to get away from England and England provided them. England could not convert their chances in the SA 22. (Finn Smiths offload was close, remember) and England couldn’t catch a cold. SA broke them late in the match and it could have been 50.
But that’s on England. No way France, NZ or Ireland would play into their hands like that.
 
Scoreline flatters us at the end there, probably 38-21 felt right but that ill-discipline really cost England there and got lucky it didn’t hit 50.

For the first game of the season can’t complain to much. We didn’t get many opportunities in scrum time and got a bit lucky with some of the calls tbh, don’t think they had a good idea of what was happening in those. I was concerned by our fast start because it gave me flashbacks to our game against Australia last year where we didn’t the same thing and then lost, but thankfully we held out on composure and pulled it back.

Standout Springbok players would be Willemse and Wiese, with Williams, Kolbe and Marx also having good games.

Paul De Villiers didn’t have a bad debut and did a good job testing the limits of the referee… but wish he would’ve actually stolen more of the ball while also giving away a couple of unnecessary penalties. Porthen also looked quite good as a 22 year old - not too much scrum opportunity but really good at open play running (and that Ox run early was a thing of beauty).

England you feel lost it on the poor kicking defense and the discipline. The kick defense just allowed us to consistently apply pressure and keep England back in their own half while the discipline allowed us to go into coast mode at the end, especially at altitude at the end of the match. They did well in the lineouts though and did well to grind out some tough forward driven tries (including the overruled one).

Anyway, hope we can build from this and get that cohesive rugby we saw at the start of each half more consistently in the full game.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
Well yet another world cup cycle and generation of rugby players to write off due to the top of the RFU being ******* spineless amateurs who have no idea how to select a head coach and a head coach who'd be out of his depth in the middle of the Sahara.
Click to expand...
The 2020s will go down as one of the worst decades in England’s history tbh. It’s been average at best and turgid at worst since the 2019 WC.

And it doesn’t look like ending anytime soon.
 
Wasps92 said:
The 2020s will go down as one of the worst decades in England’s history tbh. It’s been average at best and turgid at worst since the 2019 WC.

And it doesn’t look like ending anytime soon.
Click to expand...
I suppose there is at least one happy English man though. Andy Robinson must be overjoyed he'll no longer be viewed as the worst head coach in English history.
 
Well I went into that expecting to be destroyed and still I’m disappointed..

God Borthwick ball just sucks the life out of quality young players.

I’m not sure if it’s a case of bad coaching or we lack key international quality players but it seemed like South Africa didn’t need to get out of first gear to humiliate us.

Not sure how England go from here, just play more players out of position? Go back to booting the leather off the ball. The ideas in the “CTE” poster boy head are limited..

I would say we’ve hit rock bottom but it looks like some of the players have found picks…

South Africa look rusty and scrum dominance not as secure as usual but it’s the first game and I suspect they’ll get better as the tournament goes on
 
Wasps92 said:
The 2020s will go down as one of the worst decades in England’s history tbh. It’s been average at best and turgid at worst since the 2019 WC.

And it doesn’t look like ending anytime soon.
Click to expand...
Since the 2020's how many players have we had that are world class or best in there position for a world XV

Based on the theory you need three or four to win a RWC.

Hardly any play as well as they do at club level. Maybe it is the players that are simply not good enough. They just look miserable and within themselves.

Someone should have the balls to stand up from the senior playing group.
 
Saintjay said:
Since the 2020's how many players have we had that are world class or best in there position for a world XV

Based on the theory you need three or four to win a RWC.

Hardly any play as well as they do at club level. Maybe it is the players that are simply not good enough. They just look miserable and within themselves.

Someone should have the balls to stand up from the senior playing group.
Click to expand...
It's easier to look world class in a functioning setup. Regardless of the individual talents, the team looks worse than the sum of their parts. Put almost any England player in the South Africa team and they'd look better, maybe even world class in time.

For years under Jones we said we had no world class talent, not even best in 6n talent but we almost went 2 years unbeaten. Now we have some definite talent and it's being completely squandered in a brain-dead setup.
 
Probably slightly better than I expected but still not great.

Some moments but a few players showing they aren't cut for this level.

BJVR will be in next week.

Have to hope George Martin stays fit now.

Breakdown was bad.

The ref made some... curious calls...but I guess that's expected in their own back yard.
 
Last edited:
Abraxaz said:
I’m not sure if it’s a case of bad coaching or we lack key international quality players
Click to expand...
I was just thinking about this and I think it's a bit of both.

Jamie George in 2026, Van Portfliet, Murley, Atkinson, Freeman as a 13 and Smith as a 15 just aren't what you want in international rugby.*

Some of that is just not having the cattle, 2, 9 (outside Mitchell) and 12 are problem positions currently - that happens to everyone and is cyclical.

Today England played their strongest available team with a 15 who has played 6% of his professional matches in that position and no other time in the back three and a 13 who has played 16% of his pro matches there and no time at 12 (according to allrugby). Those are the two most specialised defensive positions on a rugby pitch, mistakes there give up more field position and points as a result than anywhere else - it's just madness and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the level of cohesion required at this level of rugby.

I think even with the relative weakness at hooker, England have the cattle for a world class pack and the purple patches they go through in games show this but dysfunctional defence and a very weak aerial game behind them doesn't allow the pack to impose themselves enough over 80 mins.

*Not a criticism of those lads today because a few of them were among a group of players who showed serious fight in what must have been a miserable second half to be a part of.
 
Tomma235 said:
More available players, coaches and money than any other Union. We should be in the top 3.
Click to expand...
I understand that in principle i do, but it's down to the squad to show it you cant just buy a WC, and we have a lot of very good players but not sure that many world class ones.

I stand by my point that that world class status needs to be earned.
 
Leonormous Boozer said:
I was just thinking about this and I think it's a bit of both.

Jamie George in 2026, Van Portfliet, Murley, Atkinson, Freeman as a 13 and Smith as a 15 just aren't what you want in international rugby.*

Some of that is just not having the cattle, 2, 9 (outside Mitchell) and 12 are problem positions currently - that happens to everyone and is cyclical.

Today England played their strongest available team with a 15 who has played 6% of his professional matches in that position and no other time in the back three and a 13 who has played 16% of his pro matches there and no time at 12 (according to allrugby). Those are the two most specialised defensive positions on a rugby pitch, mistakes there give up more field position and points as a result than anywhere else - it's just madness and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the level of cohesion required at this level of rugby.

I think even with the relative weakness at hooker, England have the cattle for a world class pack and the purple patches they go through in games show this but dysfunctional defence and a very weak aerial game behind them doesn't allow the pack to impose themselves enough over 80 mins.

*Not a criticism of those lads today because a few of them were among a group of players who showed serious fight in what must have been a miserable second half to be a part of.
Click to expand...
I mean but whose fault is it that Smith was at 15?
Borthwick wasted time in not developing the other 15 options like Carpenter tbh.
Freeman has had 18 starts at 15 before this stupid 13 experiment
 
Scotty said:
I understand that in principle i do, but it's down to the squad to show it you cant just buy a WC, and we have a lot of very good players but not sure that many world class ones.

I stand by my point that that world class status needs to be earned.
Click to expand...
Absolutely it needs to be earned and that's what is depressing. With all the resources we have our national side is less than the sum of its parts and 90% of the parts (being generous) don't play as well as they should. We still don't have a player that can play what's in front of them.
 
Scotty said:
I understand that in principle i do, but it's down to the squad to show it you cant just buy a WC, and we have a lot of very good players but not sure that many world class ones.

I stand by my point that that world class status needs to be earned.
Click to expand...
It does, but rugby is a team game and you need to be one of the best in the world to consistently look world class in a poor performing team. If England were playing good quality rugby then more players would look world class or closer to it. I think we have the players to challenge at the top, though I'm not saying we'd suddenly be winning everything. However, the coaching is the biggest issue and with the current England coaching setup no one is going to look world class.
 

Similar threads

TRF_Olyy
Fiji vs England - 11/7/26
8 9 10
Replies
271
Views
5K
Vieux Talonneur
Vieux Talonneur
saulan
South Africa vs Scotland - 11/07/2026
2 3 4
Replies
91
Views
2K
rN_X
rN_X
TRF_Olyy
France XV vs England XV - 19/06/26
2 3 4
Replies
97
Views
2K
Geordie
Geordie
saulan
South Africa vs Wales - 18/07/2026
2 3
Replies
78
Views
1K
Welsh Exile
W
saulan
South Africa vs Japan - 01/11/2025
Replies
5
Views
656
saulan
saulan

Latest posts

Back
Top