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[EOYT] England vs. Argentina 09/11/13

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We'll see what happens, Argentina usually performs better (even if losing at the end) on matches were everyone writes them off beforehand. I really don't know what to expect in this one.
 
The other Armitages: I think there are two other brothers, Guy and another younger one who were both at Toulon. I think Guy may be back at Irish permanently now, having been loaned their before, but I am unsure. Either way, not England standard.

: lol : : rofl :
"THE OTHER ARMITAGES", like they're some awkward species of mammals, that was so funny to read !!
And...there isn't more, is there ?!

And out of the Toulon players, I think only Delon Armitage, and possibly his flanker brother, could really help England. He's still playing at a high level, and is constantly starting for the best side in the Top 14 (in the last 2 years). I'd say he's an absolute lock at fullback, but that just looks really confusing considering positional terminology...
Mike Brown is very good for England though, but surely there's enough room for Delon on the England team, he's athletic, fast and on form enough, and I'm sure he could give England quality minutes at very least on the bench, as a winger or smt...

Wilko still is very good, but bringing him back would be ridiculous, in view of a home RWC that needs young talent to be ready for the future...

And Andrew *Sheridan* isn't a world class prop anymore, as impressively strong as he once was. I think all that mileage on him as made him a little less Hercules-like. I've seen him powerless against Nicolas Mas some months ago for e.g., England need to keep and work on their young pops...while it's true they've lost their scummaging reputation with this new generation. They're still good though, no doubt.
 
Anyone else feeling the Pumas scrum is being a tad overplayed this match?

Their first choice tighthead is injured and the replacement is the same player who was going back at a rate of knots against England last June. Granted there are new rules now which have benefited the Pumas and he has now better front rowers around him and Albacete is a beast of a scrummaging lock, but still I wouldn't be totally fearing a scrum with a tighthead that the same England props demolished relatively recently.
 
Have England actually had a period yet where the scrum we have put out has been the best England can produce? It seems every time we have someone missing due to injury. Would be nice to see what a fully fit first choice England scrum can do.
 
Mike Brown is very good for England though, but surely there's enough room for Delon on the England team, he's athletic, fast and on form enough, and I'm sure he could give England quality minutes at very least on the bench, as a winger or smt...

The problem with Delon Armitage is that he's an arse. As shown by his celebration in the Heineken Cup final and subsequent twitter spat. Lancaster made it clear he didn't want players who were destructive to his team ethos (e.g. Care being dropped for drinking offences). While he's made a few notable (some would say egregious) exceptions with things like Hartley's discipline, Armitage would be a bridge too far even for Lancaster.

Not to mention the policy of only selecting players who play in England. Both brothers have been penciled into England plans by pundits and fans, but they've chosen to play in France. Until they choose otherwise it doesn't matter how well they play.
 
The problem with Delon Armitage is that he's an arse. As shown by his celebration in the Heineken Cup final

*cough George north cough*

I agree though. D. Armitage is very very good, but a right div.


I think the last time we had a fully fit and on form first choice pack was against NZ last year.
 
Do we even know what our first choice is though?

To date it has been Corbisiero, Youngs, Cole. That might not be the strongest scrummaging front row but it is clearly our first choice front row although that might be about to change. We have only been able to see it in action for very brief periods though.

As for the Armitages - if they want to play for England, they need to be in England. They know this, and we can assume it doesn't bother them too much since they've stayed there. Steflon looks like coming home (maybe), Delon not so much. That's cool. They are both excellent technicians and athletes but that is not unusual. The top 4 inches - desire, coherence as a team - you cannot do without that. They need to prove they have that. I don't really care what Delon does as a result. Steflon would interest me.

Guy Armitage also interests me. He's back at London Irish where he got 5 tries in 13 games for a not particularly good side. He's injured at the moment, but there's something there. He's huge, huge as in small second row huge, he's got a fair bit of pace and agility. If he can keep scoring tries when fit again, I think he could be a figure of interest to England.
 
The problem with Delon Armitage is that he's an arse. As shown by his celebration in the Heineken Cup final and subsequent twitter spat. Lancaster made it clear he didn't want players who were destructive to his team ethos (e.g. Care being dropped for drinking offences). While he's made a few notable (some would say egregious) exceptions with things like Hartley's discipline, Armitage would be a bridge too far even for Lancaster.

Not to mention the policy of only selecting players who play in England. Both brothers have been penciled into England plans by pundits and fans, but they've chosen to play in France. Until they choose otherwise it doesn't matter how well they play.

well again, it's not like England are starving for those anyways. But had England just had Goode as its best choice for e.g. at FB, I'd make a strong argument England ought to pick Delon Armittage regardless, unless he's really as horrible as some say, which is exaggerated surely.
Oh, and sorry but we've been talking about Armittage and his woeful conduct for too long by now, totally deserves a little Cartman far right melody, sorry:
 
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Yeah Peat I agree that seems to be what Lancaster views as first choice, but myself I would have Hartley as the hooker. Youngs throwing, scrummaging and hooking are all weak.

Yoe, just because Goode is **** doesn't mean Armitage should be in the XV, at least Foden and Brown are better players and there are a few other guys (not Goode) who could be deemed to be.
 
Youngs' hooking has been overly criticised, largely imo because of one Brian Moore article which got it wrong, and so too has been his scrummaging. I don't think they're fantastic but I don't agree they're weak. More importantly, he offers something around the field, which Hartley doesn't. Hartley's pretty mediocre in the scum too if you ask me. I'm not particularly convinced by either when we come down to it.
 
Perhaps Lancaster's problem isn't his selections, but that he has had too much faith in selection advice given by his assistants.

Because from my POV, the forward selections are generally forward thinking, deadwood is mostly cut as soon as it comes, and selections react better to form (eg, Binny going ahead of Morgan on the basis of club form). On the other hand, changes in the back line are slow and almost certainly don't react to form. It has seemed in the past that two totally different selection strategies have existed with England - one for forwards, one for backs - and imo probably points to the input that the assistants have in selections.

Recently there seems to have been a change in selection strategy in the backs though. New players are being given a go. The eye opener for me was Dickson ahead of Youngs. That was a shock, to see a Lions tourist lose his place without having a chance to retain it. But guys like Yarde being given a go when such a change is unforced and Wade would have been given a go this weekend if not for injury and Goode relegated to third-choice fullback (and possibly fighting for his place come Jan?) and Watson training with the squad...

I think a group of things happened for the changes to come about:
1. England's loss to Wales and in general the missed opportunities throughout the tournament
2. Lancaster's opportunity to see another back line in action in the summer
3. England providing so little to the Lions back line maybe hammering home the limitations of our back line

But who knows? Maybe this is a temporary thing and we'll have Barritt, Strettle, Ashton and Goode in during the 6N.
 
Do you guys think one of the two teams will be using their away kits for this match?

I can't decide wich one sucks less. I don't now if England released a new away kit recently but the purple/marroon they had was awful... and the one from Argentina was pretty bad too.
 
Think Lancaster has said England won't be using their change kit this test series (though it's the one game we actually could/should, as in Rugby it's usually the home side that change shirts).
Also I love our change kit.
 
Think Lancaster has said England won't be using their change kit this test series (though it's the one game we actually could/should, as in Rugby it's usually the home side that change shirts).
Also I love our change kit.
Remove the rose and O2 and I'd buy one. Best kit I've seen in ages. Stick three feathers on it, it's far better than what we have now.
 
Hi, new member here, first post.

I live in Argentina, and thoroughly enjoyed the 2 tests over here in June.

No doubt it's a tougher game tomorrow though.

I shall be glued to my dodgy internet connection in any case.

We have real strength in depth though, in the forwards at least, so England by 10.
 
Remove the rose and O2 and I'd buy one. Best kit I've seen in ages. Stick three feathers on it, it's far better than what we have now.

I like the new WRU kit, I have the last home kit (RWC 2011) and the last away kit (blue with Admiral).

Cheers
 
Think Lancaster has said England won't be using their change kit this test series (though it's the one game we actually could/should, as in Rugby it's usually the home side that change shirts).
Also I love our change kit.
I dont know what the hell to think when it comes to the away shirts. I mean, in New Zealand at the RWC, either us or France had to wear away strips based on a coin toss I believe. We were just lucky France had enough respect to wear theres by choice in the final..
Then this year in our three test series, both teams wore their main strip. And tommorrow we are wearing a white strip..???
 
I dont know what the hell to think when it comes to the away shirts. I mean, in New Zealand at the RWC, either us or France had to wear away strips based on a coin toss I believe. We were just lucky France had enough respect to wear theres by choice in the final..
Then this year in our three test series, both teams wore their main strip. And tommorrow we are wearing a white strip..???
Money talks, I guess.

I usually don't mind us wearing our change kit during the November tests, as I usually really like it (even liked the purple and gold monstrosity last season :lol: ).
 
No, please god no.

If we take a quick look at the Toulon squad's English component I don't see anyone worth a recall.

Jonny Wilkinson: Obviously a legend of the English game etc etc. Admittedly has been in fine form in recent years, since the 2011 World Cup at least, and on a pure skill and form basis was good enough to make the Lions. However he is in his last season of professional rugby and one has to ask if he would do anything more in the England environment than be a much much much better version of Farrell. He strengths are, and always have been, his tactical kicking, goal kicking and defensive play and even though he has become a more rounded player through his career has always been most effective with a top quality 12 (Greenwood or Giteau) outside him to do the attacking. No recall.

Andrew Sheradin: Still a top quality loosie and young enough by prop standards to make it to 2015 (just). Stupidly powerful and experienced, arguably one of the best props in Europe although I am not sure how he is doing under the new laws. IMO the only one of Toulon's English players who could sensibly be recalled, except that we have one of the world's best loose heads playing for us now and two younger, up and coming talents to deputise.

Simon Shaw
: Was a world class lock, the last real enforcer England have had and if he hadn't existed in the shadow of Johno for a good chunk of his early career would probably have 100 caps. He is, however, fourty years old and almost certainly in his last professional season.

Delon Armitage:Talented but lacking anything between the ears. A bit of a thug really and when we have a plethora of full backs to chose from anyway there is no need for him to come back and trouble us all.

Steffon Armitage: A lot of people got very angry he wasn't recalled for the South Africa tour, conveniently ignoring the fact he was almost certain to miss the start of it. I've never been convinced he is as good as people say or as fit as people say. Interestingly he is apparently considering a return to the premiership when his contract expires. Could potentially play for England again but I don't think he is special enough for us to pull him back from France.

The other Armitages: I think there are two other brothers, Guy and another younger one who were both at Toulon. I think Guy may be back at Irish permanently now, having been loaned their before, but I am unsure. Either way, not England standard.


None of these players are either essential for England or play in a position we don't already have good, Premiership based options for. If there was an excellent English scum half playing at Toulon that might be different, but there isn't. There is also the wider point that players in the Top 14 have a stupidly bust schedule. The Reunion Rugby Show this week had a piece on the France/All Blacks game where it was rightly pointed out that the French players, owing to the gruelling match schedule in the Top 14, are arriving in camp late, already tired and in many cases injured. Do we want to be flying players in from this kind of environment, especially when Top 14 clubs don't have an obligation to release players as early as Premiership clubs do.

Meanwhile there is a host of talented players, a lot of them young, such as Daly, Watson, JJ, Eastmond, May, Wade, Tait, in the backs alone that we should be exploring. As I've said before, it amazes me that some of these guys aren't being given the recognition for their excellent Premiership form and in some cases, very good showing on the Argentina tour. I know injuries have played a part but can it really be true that with Yarde carrying an injury Lancaster's response was to have Ben Foden run as a winger in training and not call on May or even Watson, who was already in camp to gain experience of the environment? According to the papers yesterday that is exactly what he did.

Rant over.

You do speak your opinion and you back it up with absolute sense, so I respect your view entirely. However, I think differently.

Jonny Wilkinson - Yes, an English legend obviously. I understand what you mean when you say he needs a creative inside centre to be most effective but then again what fly half doesn't? You said he is a much, much better version of Farrell, which is absolutley correct in my view. We're going to get Farrell anyway, given the choice I would choose to have the better Farrell for the world cup. Hypothetically, if he were to come back with the goal of one last shot at the world cup I could easily see him extending his career a couple of seasons but - as he mentioned in his autobiography - he felt other players could not speak up to him because of the 'aura' that surrounds THE jonny wilkinson, that he felt players were putting him above them rather than being ingrained into the team as he was with other mighty players like Johnson, Dallaglio etc in years gone by.

Andrew Sheridan - I haven't seen much of him this season but I was a bit of a fan of 'Big Ted' when he was involved in the England set up. Had a great first season with Toulon and could (hypothetically of course) be around to do the business for one last world cup. Were it not for a ridiculous series of injuries his cap count would be so much higher than it is. First choice loosehead since his international debut until he moved to Toulon. But this is less of a problem area, Corbiserio is turning into a world class loosie as you say and I'd have him starting. But Sheridan coming off the bench in the 60th minute against a do-or-die pool match against Australia is far more frightening than Joe Marler taking to the field in my opinion.

Simon Shaw - Another English legend in my book, an enforcer as you say, although I never really saw any malice with Shaw as I did/do with the likes of Botha. Often saw him play with a smile on his face. I was gutted he wasn't a starting choice for the RWC 2011 because to me it was fairly obvious that he was the standout lock of the lot. He was old even then, but his passion for England just shamed the team. In the warm up match vs Wales his restart, scrum and tight work was still world class, and the game he started vs Romania he was the standout forward on the pitch. I havent seen much of him lately but I'd still consider him for the next lions tour of South Africa. 'Simon Shaw: The revenge - this time, it's personal'.

Armitage Brothers - Delon and Steffon - I'd definatley have them both in the EPS - form has to be merited. Whether they start or not is another matter. Delon would have to compete with Foden and Brown, the latter of which has been player incredibly well and the former of which has always put in good performances for England. I get what you say about Delon being a knob, I agree. He showed very little respect to Cardiff in the Heineken Cup and this ultimatley contributed to the win that they scraped.

Obviously this is all hypothetical, but its an interesting debating point. Had this RFU not implemented the overseas rule then I wouldn't bet against any of these not being in the squad with maybe the exception of Shaw because he's ancient and Lancaster clearly set out to remove the older players when he took charge.
 
JW has not played anywhere near his best this season and is now no longer guaranteed first choice at 10 for Toulon in his last season............Shaw, to the best of my knowldege, has retired.....Delon Armitage offers precisely nothing that Foden, Brown and Goode can offer (and his temperament is really no different to Brown's) so no need for him....Steffon is not a first choice and talk of his coming back to England is pure speculation and one wonders whether his agent is really pushing for a new contract with Toulon. for him...Sheridan may be a short term filler to cover injuries but cannot see him lasting as a full time international prop through to RWC!

I agree with Patchey that none of themw would be called up were the rules changed back to include those playing verseas!
 

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