The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?

[Amiga500]

Compared to the Rabo attendances they will be better. Less inconvenient kickoff times, not all games televised, better opposition in the league. The regions won't make a loss travelling to Scotland or Italy either.

- Agree on kick-off times making a difference - but is it not the regions that set the match times? Ulster run all their home games on Friday night where possible - albeit 7pm is a touch early.
- Disagree on TV - if your a week-in week-out attender, TV won't make a difference. BBC NI show all Ulster home games, doesn't stop them being sold out.
- Disagree on opposition. The HEC attendances are not significantly better when even the best in Europe are in tow.

I'm not sure where you've got your stats about the HEC as well. All the 3 regions in the HEC have had their best attendances this season in the tournament. Cardiff vs Toulon, Ospreys vs Leinster and Scarlets vs Racing (until the derbies). I haven't averaged it out, but I'm very confident in saying if you went back over the past dozen seasons the HEC would be better attended as you would expect of course.

Yes, they are better, but not markedly so. They aren't so much better that the contempt of familiarity wouldn't quickly result in attendances being roughly the same as the Rabo. Maybe a few hundred more, but nothing worth shouting about.

I don't see what opinion you are referring to is seen through rose-tinted glasses by the way.

:huh:

That was a pretty big post you wrote on attendances for someone who doesn't see what the conversation is about.

 

[munstermuffin]

More home grown talent than who? Wales? England?

Yes more homegrown guys here and Wales get exposure quicker than the English guy do in UK. Add in also that a lot of rejected players from Ireland go to UK and get straight in would suggest the standard of Academy isn't as good in some English clubs not all.

@Duck I don't think TV exposure etc is a problem. The current regions biggest problem is and always has been that they were set up on a bad foot with people unhappy at loosing areas like Swansea and Neath. So there is a stigma there and playing in England and breaking away from WRU won't help that

 

[Amiga500]

Think some people here are clueless about the problems facing Welsh domestic rugby at the minute, they seem to think that if they model themselves on the Irish or NZ domestic game all things will be happy but what they forget is currently the 4 welsh regions are competing against 2 Premiership football teams (something fans in NZ and Ireland would know nothing about) a Union that seems more than happy playing its players in a full international a week before a HC weekend and a salary cap below all but 1 of the Irish provinces.

The crux of the problem in Wales is that the Union and regions are at each others throats all the time.

If the WRU owned the regions (as is the case in Ireland or NZ), then such conflict would not occur.

To think the Welsh regions should just put up and shut up is very arrogant and very condescending, why the hell shouldnt they try and join the EPL if they think it will help them

Because its against the laws of the game.

If they want to play the game, then they must adhere to the rules.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yea but the flip side is that the perception remains that the IRFU don't really care about winning the rabo, something that can't be said for the premiership or top14. Sure its great for younger players to get a run, but at what cost? It's not catching the fans imagination, except for the occasional full strength derby match. Rabo are ending their sponsorship this season. Tv deals are tiny. As a competition it struggles to get the gander up. A training paddock is all well & good but in the long term the rabo needs to be taken seriously so that we have important matches week in week out.

Oh believe me Irish provinces want to win it and believe me the financial rewards of a home final or even SF are nothing to turn away. I know Munster always want it and am sure rest are same but have seen the proof before of financial rewards for a final at home

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Psychic Duck. Do you think the regions are entirely blameless in finding themselves in this situation? They're taking action now. Why were they so slack to improve their position for the last decade in term of getting people into their stadia?

On losing players, Leinster have seen Felipe Contepomi, Jonny Sexton, CJ van der Linde, Isa Nacewa, Nathan Hines, Brad Thorn, Bernard Jackman, Stan Wright, Mal O'Kelly, Chris Whitaker, Heinke van der Merwe and a bunch of talented squad players leave over the last 4 seasons. Still their crowds grow. Leinster have adapted and overcome these departures on the field.The marketing department are coming up with new innovations every year to get people buying tickets (see the promotions ahead of the Northampton game for example).

I've followed PhilBB in the past. He's argues the point he's in favour of and attacks people who disagree with him. He is in no way balanced and can't understand there's another point of view held by many. He's the blogging equivalent of Stephen Jones. For what it's worth, I don't pay any attention to Irish journalists like Gerry Thornley on the European rugby issues since I find him equally unbalanced.

 

[Rumpi]

Oh believe me Irish provinces want to win it and believe me the financial rewards of a home final or even SF are nothing to turn away. I know Munster always want it and am sure rest are same but have seen the proof before of financial rewards for a final at home

They might 'want it' but their season is very much geared to the HEC first & foremost. The IRFU wouldn't insist the provinces rest players in the HEC, so why is it okay in the rabo? Are you honestly saying this doesn't demean the rabo as a competition? In my honest opinion, It is undeniable that the systematic way the IRFU rests international players in the rabo seripusly takes away from the competition. The seasonal derbies were a case in point. Poor games & poor crowds for the games where the key international we're missing.

 

[munstermuffin]

Psychic Duck. Do you think the regions are entirely blameless in finding themselves in this situation? They're taking action now. Why were they so slack to improve their position for the last decade in term of getting people into their stadia?

On losing players, Leinster have seen Felipe Contepomi, Jonny Sexton, CJ van der Linde, Isa Nacewa, Nathan Hines, Brad Thorn, Bernard Jackman, Stan Wright, Mal O'Kelly, Chris Whitaker, Heinke van der Merwe and a bunch of talented squad players leave over the last 4 seasons. Still their crowds grow. Leinster have adapted and overcome these departures on the field.The marketing department are coming up with new innovations every year to get people buying tickets (see the promotions ahead of the Northampton game for example).

I've followed PhilBB in the past. He's argues the point he's in favour of and attacks people who disagree with him. He is in no way balanced and can't understand there's another point of view held by many. He's the blogging equivalent of Stephen Jones. For what it's worth, I don't pay any attention to Irish journalists like Gerry Thornley on the European rugby issues since I find him equally unbalanced.

Can I add to this, Munster most recently but in past Leinster and Ulster too hit lows and were struggling but fans still come through gates. Snoop is touching on point I try to make that despite bringing in overseas guys the homegrown is always main focal point and when it attaches with the fans it brings a new element. In England and France clubs are a business but here it's more like a community and I think there's more pressure on Irish based players as there is an unwritten loyalty issue that they must perform and even when players like Sexton go it is with extremely heavy hearts they go and I think they always consider their original province "their team". In France and England it more cut throat as it's a business environment.

 

[munstermuffin]

They might 'want it' but their season is very much geared to the HEC first & foremost. The IRFU wouldn't insist the provinces rest players in the HEC, so why is it okay in the rabo? Are you honestly saying this doesn't demean the rabo as a competition? In my honest opinion, It is undeniable that the systematic way the IRFU rests international players in the rabo seripusly takes away from the competition. The seasonal derbies were a case in point. Poor games & poor crowds for the games where the key international we're missing.

Must say I though Ulster vs Munster was best game of season and Connacht vs Leinster was good. They rotate squads which is fair but I will spin it and say if they are extremely comfortable in league why shouldn't they use squad. Let's not forget the IRFU player welfare programme is implemented with EPS guys now in England so does that lower their league?
Munster are crippled with injuries over festive season and could you blame them for rotating. Add in guys like Dave Foley and Jordi Murphy cemented spots for HEC over festive period so another thing is what/how would you deem them weakening a team. Is it because their not household names yet!

 

[Rumpi]

I didn't know that there are rounds of the Aviva premiership where The RFU systematically rests their test players. When/how often does this happen?

 

[munstermuffin]

I didn't know that there are rounds of the Aviva premiership where The RFU systematically rests their test players. When/how often does this happen?

Well that's why there is the Elite list. Before Flood was dropped out of squad he was rested recently vs Saracens. But yes there is agreements between PRL and RFU which came from IRFU policy which also I'm sure the Welsh regions adopt

 

[stus768]

I have searched this but can't find anything specific. I was under the impression that they had to be rested for 2 weeks in the whole season? Could not find this written specifically: http://www.rfu.com/news/2007/november/news articles/rfuandprlsignneweightyearagreement

They do have to be in England camp 2 weeks before start of internationals. It does mention Elite Player Management Programmes that may be involved in when they are rested but unsure.

 

[munstermuffin]

I have searched this but can't find anything specific. I was under the impression that they had to be rested for 2 weeks in the whole season? Could not find this written specifically: http://www.rfu.com/news/2007/november/news articles/rfuandprlsignneweightyearagreement

They do have to be in England camp 2 weeks before start of internationals. It does mention Elite Player Management Programmes that may be involved in when they are rested but unsure.

Can't attach link but google PRL terms agreement it explains it but Elite players have to be rested for 1 game in each of 3 blocks they have as well as being released for camps etc.

Here's a link
http://www.premiershiprugby.com/downloads/PRLTermsto_RFU270307.pdf

 

[Rumpi]

Maybe one of the English posters could fill us in?

Even if the elite players are rested here and there in the aviva, each club only has a handful of England players, whereas with the provinces you can be talking 12-13 players, I'll happily pay to see a full strength Leinster v a full strength, or close to it, ulster, but I've little interest in seeing their reserve squads play each other.

All we want, as sports fans, is to know that everyone is busting a gut to win a competition. Look at Montpellier last night with their second string in the HEC, I know they're out of contention but it drives me mad. Not sure what can be done about it though.

 

[St George]

The fact that the IRFU very much uses the rabo as an arena to rest international players doesn't help the competition. The recent derby matches over the festive period were damp squibs due to so few front line players playing. I know why they do it, but I think it takes from the league as a a whole.

Yea but the flip side is that the perception remains that the IRFU don't really care about winning the rabo, something that can't be said for the premiership or top14. Sure its great for younger players to get a run, but at what cost? It's not catching the fans imagination, except for the occasional full strength derby match. Rabo are ending their sponsorship this season. Tv deals are tiny. As a competition it struggles to get the gander up. A training paddock is all well & good but in the long term the rabo needs to be taken seriously so that we have important matches week in week out.

As i have stated, i do not watch the Rabo, and so i have to rely on more knowledgeable people like Rumpi. And IMO his posts here seems to be pointing towards why i have made the comment that the Rabo doesnt seem to be doing its job.

Rumpi: Do you believe that a more merit based qualifying for the HC would improve the match day squads?

 

[munstermuffin]

Maybe one of the English posters could fill us in?

Even if the elite players are rested here and there in the aviva, each club only has a handful of England players, whereas with the provinces you can be talking 12-13 players, I'll happily pay to see a full strength Leinster v a full strength, or close to it, ulster, but I've little interest in seeing their reserve squads play each other.

All we want, as sports fans, is to know that everyone is busting a gut to win a competition. Look at Montpellier last night with their second string in the HEC, I know they're out of contention but it drives me mad. Not sure what can be done about it though.

Well I will put it this way ... What's a full strength Leinster team.
Healy or McGrath
Cronin or Strauss
Ross or Moore
Cullen/Toner/McCarthy/
McLaughlin/SOB/Heaslip/Jennings/Ruddock
Reddan/Boss
Madigan/Jimmy
D'Arcy/BOD/McFadden
Dave K/Rob K/ Luke Fitz/ Zane K

A lot of more younger but except for Moore and 2 NIQs all are international andquality 25 guys

 

[munstermuffin]

As i have stated, i do not watch the Rabo, and so i have to rely on more knowledgeable people like Rumpi. And IMO his post seems to be pointing towards why i have made the comment that the Rabo doesnt seem to be doing its job.

Rumpi: Do you believe that a more merit based qualifying for the HC would improve the match day squads?

I 100% agree qualification for HEC should come in but squads wouldn't change it as if it were in teams would still be qualifying

 

[munstermuffin]

That last 1 is meant to say except Moore and 2 NIQ all are Irish internationals but all 25 are quality

 

[Rumpi]

Well I will put it this way ... What's a full strength Leinster team.
Healy or McGrath
Cronin or Strauss
Ross or Moore
Cullen/Toner/McCarthy/
McLaughlin/SOB/Heaslip/Jennings/Ruddock
Reddan/Boss
Madigan/Jimmy
D'Arcy/BOD/McFadden
Dave K/Rob K/ Luke Fitz/ Zane K

A lot of more younger but except for Moore and 2 NIQs all are international andquality 25 guys

You've lost me. Are you suggesting there's no such thing as a second string at Leinster? Darcy / BOD / McFadden? Is that a serious question?

 

[Rumpi]

Rumpi: Do you believe that a more merit based qualifying for the HC would improve the match day squads?

I think it can only be a good thing as hopefully it'll keep the mid table teams honest.

 

[munstermuffin]

You've lost me. Are you suggesting there's no such thing as a second string at Leinster? Darcy / BOD / McFadden? Is that a serious question?

No but their 2nd string is of good quality and keeps 1st XV honest. A prime example is Madigan. Kept Sexton on his feet and now took foot off gas bit and was ousted.

Also so my point your view of strongest Leinster XV may be different to others. And real fans of provinces always go to see team regardless of who's on sheet and want to learn about newer guys