[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 4: New Zealand v South Africa (16/09/2017)

[sharkfan]

 

[The Jones Boy]

57-nil.
It's not even worth ragging on my Saffer acquaintances.
That is a scoreline that makes the victory hollow.
No, I am not getting down on my AB's for winning by too much.
The AB's played a fabulous entertaining game of running rugby and I loved watching the tries, but...
When a top tier side, who have genuinely looked like they were turning the corner and coming back into some old school form gets a drubbing like this, it doesn't feel right.
The coach/manager needs a rocket. Defence, defence, defence.
They also need to move quickly to convince the playing squad that this was a one game aberration, a blip, and it can be resolved and progress can continue.
Last week they held Aussie to a draw away in Perth.

Galumay mentioned prior to the game that the AB's had not put together a perfomance they were completely happy with this year and a big effort was due and it came against the Bokke.
There wasn't a team on the planet that could live with that kind of AB performance.
That doesn't mean the AB's are unbeatable, far from it, because the AB's don't always play as well as this for 80 minutes. In fact this would be the first time this year they have put this kind of performance together.
Last week they struggled with Argentina.
They are still undergoing transitional aspects in their personnel.

The hard part for me to understand is where was the hard grit in defence I expect from a Springbok team?
South African teams are tough, they fight hard all the way to the line and you have to earn your victories against them.
This result has no reflection of the core values you expect from a Bok side.
So the win feels kind of hollow...

 

[mania]

View attachment 5453

At least she'll let you come first

 

[sharkfan]

I haven't felt so frustrated and annoyed after a loss for a while. I must admit, this one is hard to take. Take nothing away from the All Blacks, but the Boks should never have lost this far. They were really improving this year, beating France 3-0, beating Argentina 2-0 and coming from behind and nearly beating Australia in Perth. This team has the belief and fighting spirit that were missing last year. How did everything go so wrong? Last year if the Boks lost 57-0, I would have understood as they were very poor and in disarray, but this year?? Let's hope they can get up and carry on. This was like someone punching you in the gut without warning you. The Bok is lying on the ground trying to get back its breath, but it will get up again.

 

[Ospervat]

Hey AC - take note - it's time to rethink how you interpret positives cos this is how the AB's see their own performance.

http://m.sport24.co.za/sport24/Rugb...d-win-not-good-enough-say-all-blacks-20170917

The All Blacks gave themselves a pass mark but said there was still a lot to work on as they reflected on their record 57-0 demolition of South Africa.

But scrum-half Aaron Smith said there were signs it was not the complete performance the All Blacks were searching for "We came out in the first 10 in that second half and we were average and a bit sluggish," he said.

"We have still got improvements. Nehe (Milner-Skudder) scored that try in the corner and we walked back and you always know that it's not a good feeling when you're not trying to get back (quickly).

Wow - Sorry to say but AC just isn't in the same space when it comes to measuring acceptable performance.

 

[Ospervat]

 

[Larksea]

kind of a bizarre game and it seems like I'm not the only one who felt a bit hollow after the game. We shouldn't beat SA like that and we really need their rivalry. I expected and looked forward to a tight contest and I didn't get to see it.

However I dont think this game was a true representation of where the sides were at. The crazy thing is this AB's side is only really starting to gel. New front row, new blindside and a new back 3 while we are still trying to find out best midfield combination. I still predict that we are not going to see the best from this team till he end of year tour.

The way this game went, the boks started very strong and looked very good. But when they gave a couple of small chances an the ABs started racking up points it looked like the boks quickly lost belief. Some aspects of their game were a disaster, the scrum and lineout was unbelievable. To beat the AB's the boks need to hold their own in the scrums and get the better of the AB's in the lineouts. However the AB's lineout is starting to hum right now. With whitelock, retalick and Read with coles throwing this current lineout may be the best we have ever had.

The AB's scrum has been great too, just like he did in 2015 Laulala has come in and been brilliant, he really thrives in test rugby and the AB environment. Hames did a solid job too and they were both brutal around the middle on defense.

Squire was brilliant for 25minutes or so and it was a shame to lose him but Scott Barrett was excellent filling in at 6. It looked to me like he really added to the scrum as well?!? and that try he scored was a classic, pretty impressive for a lock to get back turn around and get through such a small space.

Ioane was devastating, tied defenders into knots. it seemed like the gaps were out wide, in the middle channels players like Crotty, SBW and McKenzie couldn't find space but out wide there were gaps everywhere. I was concerned of the balance of the back 3 without Dagg but in the end they were never really under pressure outside the first 15min so it didn't matter.

I must say I dont know SA players and selections that well but I know Rhule is one of the worst defenders in super rugby. You can't hide players like that against the AB's. His selection didn't make sense to me and it was exposed.

I think this was a great performance from the AB's back to front. not complete by any means but I think some credit goes to the boks defense in the midfield. At least that was strong.

Cane was mind blowing good and created chaos at the rucks. he went off then Perenara came up with some key turnovers. AB's bench was huge Ofa's best performance in black so far. Maybe Barretts best test so far this year.

 

[smartcooky]

Ioane was devastating, tied defenders into knots

....because he runs at the GAPS not at the players.

You have a look at all his line breaks... In the vast majority if them, he lines up the would-be tackler and steps them into the gap (where possible, on the weak shoulder of the opponent). He doesn't try to be a battering ram and crash his way through. You watch the break that led to Retallick's try...



...he was confronted with four potential tacklers. He steps outside the first one (Marx), inside the second one (Rhule), a burst of acceleration to defeat the third (du Preez) followed by an immediate step to his right to beat the 4th (Hougaard?)

He hardly had a hand laid on him... he didn't break those tackles, he simply avoided them altogether

 

[The Jones Boy]

On the starting AB players performances;
Very impressed with Liam Squire in his 28 minutes or so, he was attacking the line carrying the ball like a wild bear. His driving runs were reminiscent of a young Kaino.
Squire has to be good because Fifita is in the wings and he looks a bit special. However Squire was good. He was taking two and three tacklers at a time and showing he is not lacking in pace and power.
Sam Cane; on the second viewing of the game his input especially in the first half was impressive. His tackling is nothing short of menacing. He hits with genuine aggression and rarely misses his mark. He was on fire.
Sonny Bill; this might come across as odd but when you watch it again you will see two defenders on him all the time, which is why he didn't seem to shine as much as the other players around him, he was taking the heat. Yet still he made offloads and protected possession effectively. He was even free for an easy try but Coles after looking at him went inside and gave the gift to Retallick to stroll over. He is still a big player for us and Crotty looked very good again in this game, not least because the heat was more on SBW.
Aaron Smith; the mercurial left foot kick after the quick tap that sat up like a birthday present for Reiko was sublime. His pace of passing as well helped to move the backline along quickly and kept the Boks on the back foot scrambling in defence. He monstered his opposite number.
Beauden Barrett; he just does so muh other than place kicking. His marshalling of the backline, his defensive cover, his electric pace, his clarity of vision for absolutely cheeky offloads and gliding runs. I start to wonder if there's anything he cannot do...
Kieran Read, the old warrior, a powerhouse and ultra reliable on defence and in the lineout, he's no slouch at carrying either
Reiko Ioane; pace, power and guile, he's not a block buster in the mould of Julian Savea or Jonah, he reminds me much more of JK, he hits the lines, looks for space and swerves and steps for a big man, he's a revelation.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Ioane was devastating, tied defenders into knots. it seemed like the gaps were out wide, in the middle channels players like Crotty, SBW and McKenzie couldn't find space but out wide there were gaps everywhere. I was concerned of the balance of the back 3 without Dagg but in the end they were never really under pressure outside the first 15min so it didn't matter.

I just love the fact hes not afraid to hit gaps back infield, he always runs too his support. there have been plenty of very good wings who would always default to stepping outside to try and use the touchline, eventually defenders will read that

 

[mania]

hames in his defence got better as game went on. got owned first 15 mins but wasnt all his fault. but if u gonna talk the talk u gotta walk the walk. when crockett came on he owned it and showed that maybe he should start. i usually hate on crockett but i was real happy to see him have an awesome game. showed his brutal technique at scrum time and pushed around his opposite.
reiko is amzin.
retallick and whitelock are prob our greatest lock pairing in my era. better than ianJones and robinBrooke imho. their workload just leaves me in awe. if they aint tackling they clearing and then they throw in some ball carries. superhuman.
im a hater on tuugafasi but he had a blinder . if he keeps it up i might become a fan. i enjoy watching players earn redemption and ofa really earnt his jersey
gotta say glad barrett had an acceptable game. other than kickin off the tee he didnt do much wrong last week i thought. happy that this performance will get media off his back.

 

[Five Meters Out]

When the AB's start the razzle dazzle and the passes stick no one can go with them, and the passes stuck esp in first half on Saturday.
However, the Boks looked weak in parts they are usually so strong. Lineouts, forward rumbles and the midfield. Did you ever think you'd see an All Black bump off a Bok midfielder like LB did. That should never happen. I remember those Bok midfielders from the 70's. They were big strong and smashed AB midfielders.

 

[smartcooky]

When the AB's start the razzle dazzle and the passes stick no one can go with them, and the passes stuck esp in first half on Saturday.
However, the Boks looked weak in parts they are usually so strong. Lineouts, forward rumbles and the midfield. Did you ever think you'd see an All Black bump off a Bok midfielder like LB did. That should never happen. I remember those Bok midfielders from the 70's. They were big strong and smashed AB midfielders.

Nope, and did you also see what Crotty did? He smashed through not one, but TWO (yeah, count 'em, TWO) Bok Locks.

Can you imagine any midfield back smashing through Victor Matfield and Bakkies Botha?

 

[Larksea]

that was a vintage hit up from Crotty. And laid the platform for the try that was scored a few passes later.

 

[User1245]

kind of a bizarre game and it seems like I'm not the only one who felt a bit hollow after the game. We shouldn't beat SA like that and we really need their rivalry. I expected and looked forward to a tight contest and I didn't get to see it.

However I dont think this game was a true representation of where the sides were at. The crazy thing is this AB's side is only really starting to gel. New front row, new blindside and a new back 3 while we are still trying to find out best midfield combination. I still predict that we are not going to see the best from this team till he end of year tour.

The way this game went, the boks started very strong and looked very good. But when they gave a couple of small chances an the ABs started racking up points it looked like the boks quickly lost belief. Some aspects of their game were a disaster, the scrum and lineout was unbelievable. To beat the AB's the boks need to hold their own in the scrums and get the better of the AB's in the lineouts. However the AB's lineout is starting to hum right now. With whitelock, retalick and Read with coles throwing this current lineout may be the best we have ever had.

The AB's scrum has been great too, just like he did in 2015 Laulala has come in and been brilliant, he really thrives in test rugby and the AB environment. Hames did a solid job too and they were both brutal around the middle on defense.

Squire was brilliant for 25minutes or so and it was a shame to lose him but Scott Barrett was excellent filling in at 6. It looked to me like he really added to the scrum as well?!? and that try he scored was a classic, pretty impressive for a lock to get back turn around and get through such a small space.

Ioane was devastating, tied defenders into knots. it seemed like the gaps were out wide, in the middle channels players like Crotty, SBW and McKenzie couldn't find space but out wide there were gaps everywhere. I was concerned of the balance of the back 3 without Dagg but in the end they were never really under pressure outside the first 15min so it didn't matter.

I must say I dont know SA players and selections that well but I know Rhule is one of the worst defenders in super rugby. You can't hide players like that against the AB's. His selection didn't make sense to me and it was exposed.

I think this was a great performance from the AB's back to front. not complete by any means but I think some credit goes to the boks defense in the midfield. At least that was strong.

Cane was mind blowing good and created chaos at the rucks. he went off then Perenara came up with some key turnovers. AB's bench was huge Ofa's best performance in black so far. Maybe Barretts best test so far this year.

I'm not sure what is so confusing about Rhule's selection? I'm confused that you're unaware of the racial quota system in SA Rugby?

Don't worry, it's okay to just shrug and say "oh well I hope SA gets its house in order so we can have competitive matches against them again" because I know for the rest of the world black-on-white racism is not as sexy as white-on-black racism, even when it directly violates a World Rugby bye-law.

So just keep on racking up the wins and records against the "mighty" Springboks. Lots of more hollow victories up for grabs for many years/decades to come with the quota targets more aggressive every year!

 

[smartcooky]

I'm not sure what is so confusing about Rhule's selection? I'm confused that you're unaware of the racial quota system in SA Rugby?

OK,Steve-O. First let me say, I'm hearing ya brother. I think the reverse racism that is happening in your country with regards to sports team selections is every bit as vile as the selection policy under Apartheid.

That said, do you really not have a black right wing in South Africa better that Rhule? Really? Could you not get a release for JP Pieteresen? How about Dillyn Leyds? Lwazi Mvovo? Lionel Mapoe? Cornal Hendricks?

At least these guys can TACKLE!!!

 

[TRF_heineken]

Wow, I'm at a loss for words. I knew we were going to lose, but not by this margin. But this isn't what's bothering me, what's bothering me is how calm Allister Coetzee was after the match, in his interview, and the remarks that has been said afterwards. I'm shocked that he's not trembling in his boots and having a hearing as soon as the plane lands in SA in front of SARU. I'm shocked that there isn't an automatic termination clause in AC's contract if the Boks lose by 50 points or more. And a shutout??!! Really? We had one opportunity to score 3 points, and we couldn't even manage that.

The memes says it all:

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Rugb...eme-crazy-after-boks-worst-test-loss-20170917

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'm actually in quite good spirits. Didn't watch the game as I would rather watch my son at play. Heard we got hammered and thought..

We were going to lose anyway. Whether its 20 or 30 or the eventual 57 matters little to anything short term.

What NZ did to us was a huge favor IMO as I was starting to get the feeling we in SA were plastering over cracks and Coetzee was getting the idea he could afford to go at this test rugby business half tilt. Surely we will be forced to address our selections and approach again? I feel we were slowly drifting away from what looked like a 'new' approach and one better suited to our current crop of players. Are we still stuck with AC and his pet projects? He seems defiant in the media. Chop.

I will catch up soon enough but I think I have a good idea of what to expect as I expected as much even if I grossly underestimated the eventual margin.

 

[smartcooky]

I think y'all are apportioning blame in the wrong place by hanging this on AC. Imagine if Shag had selection criteria such that at least 50% of his run-on, and half his bench team had to be selected from Super Rugby Franchises that had the letter "b" in their name! Currently, only six players fit that bill.

Ofa Tu'ungafasi - Prop
Blake Gibson - Flanker
Jerome Kaino - Flanker
Akira Ioane - Eightman
Rieko Ioane - Wing
Sonny Bill Williams - Centre

First, that means no Read, no Cane, no Squire and no Ardie Savea in the starting XV and only two of them on the bench.

Second, he has to drop six players in his squad and replace them with Blues players. Players who would probably have to be dropped?

one out of Aaron Smith, TJ Perenara and TKB (replaced with Augustine Pulu)
one out of NMS, Dagg and Naholo (replaced with Matt Duffie)
one out of Crockett and Laulala (replaced with Sam Prattley)
one out of Whitlock, Retallick, S. Barrett & Luke Romano (replaced with Patrick Tuipulotu)
one out of B. Barrett, Sopoaga and McKenzie (replaced with Ihaia West or Bryn Gatland)
one out of Coles, Taylor, Harris and Riccitelli (replaced with James Parsons)

All of the existing Blues players, and all of the replacement players have to be selected for the match day 23.
That is the kind of constraints that the South African government (who are REALLY to blame for this) put AC under. Is it any wonder he can't pick a competitive team?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'm actually in quite good spirits. Didn't watch the game as I would rather watch my son at play. Heard we got hammered and thought..

We were going to lose anyway. Whether its 20 or 30 or the eventual 57 matters little to anything short term.

What NZ did to us was a huge favor IMO as I was starting to get the feeling we in SA were plastering over cracks and Coetzee was getting the idea he could afford to go at this test rugby business half tilt. Surely we will be forced to address our selections and approach again? I feel we were slowly drifting away from what looked like a 'new' approach and one better suited to our current crop of players. Are we still stuck with AC and his pet projects? He seems defiant in the media. Chop.

And then the memes are priceless.

I will catch up soon enough but I think I have a good idea of what to expect as I expected as much even if I grossly underestimated the eventual margin.

 

[Icemn]

lol

I cant wait for the return fixture in Cape Town. That will be a home game for the AB as well as they have more supporters in Cape Town than what they have in the entire NZ

Newlands will be painted black...

Another 50 point hiding on its way...

"i see a red (stadium) door and I want it painted black..."

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm actually in quite good spirits. Didn't watch the game as I would rather watch my son at play. Heard we got hammered and thought..

We were going to lose anyway. Whether its 20 or 30 or the eventual 57 matters little to anything short term.

What NZ did to us was a huge favor IMO as I was starting to get the feeling we in SA were plastering over cracks and Coetzee was getting the idea he could afford to go at this test rugby business half tilt. Surely we will be forced to address our selections and approach again? I feel we were slowly drifting away from what looked like a 'new' approach and one better suited to our current crop of players. Are we still stuck with AC and his pet projects? He seems defiant in the media. Chop.

And then the memes are priceless.

I will catch up soon enough but I think I have a good idea of what to expect as I expected as much even if I grossly underestimated the eventual margin.

Yeah, I think that we didn't manage to score a single point is what ticks me off. Bookies said the AB's will win by 19+.

But to be perfectly honest, we were so poor, it's hard to fathom that we could make any comeback. Unless there are wholesale changes happening, I can see us losing both home games.

I think one guy that has to come in, is Rohan Janse van Rensburg. He picked up another MotM award on the weekend for the Lions in the CC. He's in hot form!

Another guy to look at is Kwagga Smith.

And if we look at what Jean De Villiers, Naas Botha and Nick Mallet said after the game, is that the Bok team is lacking players with X-factor. Mallet said that NZ has at least 10 guys in their team with X-factor, but he said the current bok team doesn't have 1.

JDV said that it doesn't help we play this expansive All Black type of play against the All Blacks. They have mastered it, and we are still learning the tricks, and we got schooled.

As for wingers, I think it's time Ruan Combrink, Seabelo Senatla and Dillyn Leyds are brought in to show what they can do. Pity that Jamba Ulengo is still out injured.

 

[sharkfan]

Well at least we didn't lose 75-0...or 76-0 like England did once!

 

[smartcooky]

Well at least we didn't lose 75-0...or 76-0 like England did once!

Yeah. But don't lose heart

I have a little two-question quiz for you

1. Can you remember which year Australia beat South Africa by a score of 49-0 ?

2. Can you remember who won the RWC the year after that match?

 

[sharkfan]

OK,Steve-O. First let me say, I'm hearing ya brother. I think the reverse racism that is happening in your country with regards to sports team selections is every bit as vile as the selection policy under Apartheid.

That said, do you really not have a black right wing in South Africa better that Rhule? Really? Could you not get a release for JP Pieteresen? How about Dillyn Leyds? Lwazi Mvovo? Lionel Mapoe? Cornal Hendricks?

At least these guys can TACKLE!!!

Yeah what on earth happened to JP he isn't that old yet and can still play for the Boks. Perhaps Coetzee can sent Hougaard back to Europe and bring back JP. Dillon Leyds cannot tackle either, Lwazi Mvovo had a shocker against Ireland last year. Still didn't put his hand up for a bok jersey this year. Lionel Mapoe is more of a centre and not up to international standard. I can't remember Cornal Hendricks being a exceptionally good defender either.

 

[sharkfan]

Yeah. But don't lose heart

I have a little two-question quiz for you

1. Can you remember which year Australia beat South Africa by a score of 49-0 ?

2. Can you remember who won the RWC the year after that match?

Answer to first question is in 2006 and answer to second question is we won the World Cup. Yes that loss wasn't good and the world cup triumph a year later, shows you how quickly things can change. Actually that 49-0 drubbing was almost worse than this weekend, because that was an experienced Bok team with the likes of Percy Montgomery, Os Du Randt, John Smit and Victor Matfield playing.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yeah what on earth happened to JP he isn't that old yet and can still play for the Boks. Perhaps Coetzee can sent Hougaard back to Europe and bring back JP. Dillon Leyds cannot tackle either, Lwazi Mvovo had a shocker against Ireland last year. Still didn't put his hand up for a bok jersey this year. Lionel Mapoe is more of a centre and not up to international standard. I can't remember Cornal Hendricks being a exceptionally good defender either.

Cornal Hendricks chances of ever playing Bok Rugby is hanging on a very fine thread. He can't pass the fitness tests at the unions, and can't be then contracted to play. This has happened at both the Bulls and the Kings in this year, so I think we should take him out of the equation completely.

If we want a more defensively secure backline, then we have to look at Ruan Combrink as the one winger and I don't know who on the other wing. Maybe Warwick Gelant?

Actually, I think Gelant should be one of the guys that should feature in one or both of the next 2 tests...

 

[User1245]

OK,Steve-O. First let me say, I'm hearing ya brother. I think the reverse racism that is happening in your country with regards to sports team selections is every bit as vile as the selection policy under Apartheid.

That said, do you really not have a black right wing in South Africa better that Rhule? Really? Could you not get a release for JP Pieteresen? How about Dillyn Leyds? Lwazi Mvovo? Lionel Mapoe? Cornal Hendricks?

At least these guys can TACKLE!!!

It's seems that simple but when you add some variables (form, experience, and talent) you can see why it becomes a game of musical chairs where some deserving black/coloured players are possibly even missing out.

For example the coach is probably sticking with Jesse Kiel mostly because he has Test experience, although Am probably desires a crack after a great season but has no Test experience, therefore Combrinck misses out. Being a white wing is a serious career limiting move. Anyway so you need to stick an ethnic black on the wing. He dropped Mvovo because he was terrible under the high ball against Ireland. Mapoe? Nope not an ethnic black... JP Pietersen!? Nope not an ethnic black and over the hill. But you need an ethnic black because Skosan is on the other wing and is not an ethnic black! Darn those slightly less than brown guys! (See how well I know my races!). Leyds? Not an ethnic black either. I'm sure you get my point. God forbid Kolisi gets injured, then there'll need to some more shuffling to balance the race books.

We already wasted last year with Stick being forced in as backline coach despite having no track record. Sounds like a lovely environment to be in. Sprinkle the general state of SA on top and its sounds like a good place to spend your limited career at!

Anyway putting all that aside, it's against the bloody laws set down by World Rugby! Who here disagrees with that bye-law? Since we're so special that the laws don't apply to us let's make it work to our advantage and field 16 players.

NZ and Australia not standing up to this is cooking their own goose IMO. Now that Europe is an option going forward I foresee SA going that route to have something in their advantage (money) to try keep players from leaving. SANZAAR partnership does not look as attractive.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

lol

I cant wait for the return fixture in Cape Town. That will be a home game for the AB as well as they have more supporters in Cape Town than what they have in the entire NZ

Newlands will be painted black...

Another 50 point hiding on its way...

"i see a red (stadium) door and I want it painted black..."

That is true, sad and still baffling.

 

[sharkfan]

Well since we have to get an ethnic black winger, Coetzee can give Makazole Mapimpi a chance.

It's seems that simple but when you add some variables (form, experience, and talent) you can see why it becomes a game of musical chairs where some deserving black/coloured players are possibly even missing out.

For example the coach is probably sticking with Jesse Kiel mostly because he has Test experience, although Am probably desires a crack after a great season but has no Test experience, therefore Combrinck misses out. Being a white wing is a serious career limiting move. Anyway so you need to stick an ethnic black on the wing. He dropped Mvovo because he was terrible under the high ball against Ireland. Mapoe? Nope not an ethnic black... JP Pietersen!? Nope not an ethnic black and over the hill. But you need an ethnic black because Skosan is on the other wing and is not an ethnic black! Darn those slightly less than brown guys! (See how well I know my races!). Leyds? Not an ethnic black either. I'm sure you get my point. God forbid Kolisi gets injured, then there'll need to some more shuffling to balance the race books.

We already wasted last year with Stick being forced in as backline coach despite having no track record. Sounds like a lovely environment to be in. Sprinkle the general state of SA on top and its sounds like a good place to spend your limited career at!

Anyway putting all that aside, it's against the bloody laws set down by World Rugby! Who here disagrees with that bye-law? Since we're so special that the laws don't apply to us let's make it work to our advantage and field 16 players.

NZ and Australia not standing up to this is cooking their own goose IMO. Now that Europe is an option going forward I foresee SA going that route to have something in their advantage (money) to try keep players from leaving. SANZAAR partnership does not look as attractive.