England World Cup Squad

[Rinkadink]

Over the last couple of years for their clubs LCD makes

Over the last season have a look at the stats for LCD vs Harry Thacker? Don't have them offhand but I vaguely recall Thacker making an average of 7m per carry over the season and things like that. Not sure Toby's stats are right though, how can Underhill average 1.33 passes per game yet has only made 1 pass across all the warm up matches? Appreciate the effort.

With all that said games and squads are more than statistics though.

 

[MarkyH]

Over the last season have a look at the stats for LCD vs Harry Thacker? Don't have them offhand but I vaguely recall Thacker making an average of 7m per carry over the season and things like that. Not sure Toby's stats are right though, how can Underhill average 1.33 passes per game yet has only made 1 pass across all the warm up matches? Appreciate the effort.

With all that said games and squads are more than statistics though.

I think its because he's played less than 80 minutes?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Over the last season have a look at the stats for LCD vs Harry Thacker? Don't have them offhand but I vaguely recall Thacker making an average of 7m per carry over the season and things like that. Not sure Toby's stats are right though, how can Underhill average 1.33 passes per game yet has only made 1 pass across all the warm up matches? Appreciate the effort.

With all that said games and squads are more than statistics though.

Because he only played 60 minutes in that match, so on average he makes 1.33 passes per 80 minutes. Again, I know it’s far from a perfect system but it gives a general idea.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

With all that said games and squads are more than statistics though.

Have a like for that sentence.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

LCD being "statistically" better than Jamie George really is all the proof you need that you should judge what you see on the pitch not just numbers on a page.
There is no world in which LCD should start over JG.

 

[BPM]

Over the last couple of years for their clubs LCD makes twice as many runs as George (av/game. 17.2 v 8.6) , metres made( ave. 29m v 19m), DB (2.6 V 1 ) and passes made (6.3v 3.4) Their tackling stats are virtually identical. That, for me ,shows quite a massive difference in their involvement in games. and it is something that bears out my own
assessment when watching them play. IMO it would certainly more than compensate for the 5% ( hardly considerable) difference in the L/0 (1 throw in 20).
Despite all highlight reel stuff, occasional offload etc JG doesn't offer anywhere near what LCD does. Why is that?

Have you considered that their club sides play with different styles and they’re asked to play different roles?

For context on those particular stats, LCD is used as one of Chiefs’ primary carriers. George doesn’t have that role at Sarries given the plethora of other carriers they have. He gets used more in the wide channels as a link man which doesn’t generate high numbers on the carrying stats.

I find it odd that you refer to George as a ‘highlight reel’ player. I’d say it’s the other way round. George is great at the bread and butter stuff which is most important for a hooker. LCD is great at the more eye-catching stuff but not as solid on the basics.

 

[Every Time Ref]

LCD being "statistically" better than Jamie George really is all the proof you need that you should judge what you see on the pitch not just numbers on a page.
There is no world in which LCD should start over JG.

Frankly I’d always pick 15 fullbacks in any team. The game is all about metres gained right? And fullbacks are always top of the metres run stars. QED

Shame for Anthony Watson as it would mean the end of his international career but there have to be sacrifices.

 

[FLOBALOB]

Have you considered that their club sides play with different styles and they’re asked to play different roles?

For context on those particular stats, LCD is used as one of Chiefs’ primary carriers. George doesn’t have that role at Sarries given the plethora of other carriers they have. He gets used more in the wide channels as a link man which doesn’t generate high numbers on the carrying stats.

I find it odd that you refer to George as a ‘highlight reel’ player. I’d say it’s the other way round. George is great at the bread and butter stuff which is most important for a hooker. LCD is great at the more eye-catching stuff but not as solid on the basics.

I understand JG tends to play more towards the touch (carrying less) but that gives him more room to run and pass, but his average metres made (29v19) and number of passes (6.3 v 3.4) are both less than LCD .
I know stats arent everything , but i do think JGs ability is being a little over egged. Barnes (once he'd stopped dribbling) , even gushed that he could be one of the stars of the world cup ) . The hyperbole given to some players verges on the ridiculous ( remember Sir Clive comparing Cokanasinga to Lomu after 10 mins in an England shirt).

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I agree with most that George is the clear starter over LCD.

That said, in the future I’d really like to see George lean up. I like the idea of having him in the wide channels where he can use his hands to put the fast guys around him into space, but I think he’d be so much more effective if he was fast enough to pose more of a threat to go himself if the space opened up for him.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

When Jamie George first burst on the scene he had the reputation of being this all singing all dancing ball playing hooker - essentially Schalk Brits but shaped like a barrel, except better at the set piece.
Don't understand anyone wanting LCD above him - like it's literally mind boggling. What does he do better? Guess he's a bit better at the ruck, and somehow recieves opposition 5m lineouts quite a lot, but other than that...?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I agree with most that George is the clear starter over LCD.

That said, in the future I’d really like to see George lean up. I like the idea of having him in the wide channels where he can use his hands to put the fast guys around him into space, but I think he’d be so much more effective if he was fast enough to pose more of a threat to go himself if the space opened up for him.

Got to disagree with that. He's no slouch, but I think he’s striking a good balance between tight and loose play as he is. And he just doesn’t seem to be a 6 pack kind of guy.

Our front row got all skinny for 15 and it really didn’t help.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Got to disagree with that. He's no slouch, but I think he’s striking a good balance between tight and loose play as he is. And he just doesn’t seem to be a 6 pack kind of guy.

Our front row got all skinny for 15 and it really didn’t help.

I'm not saying I want to see a 6 pack on the guy, otherwise I'd just call for Thacker to be included. I'd just like to see him drop a few kilos to be a slightly more dangerous runner .

That said, it seems like our front row (along with the rest of our forwards for that matter) have all gotten pretty skinny through the training camp. You can choose how much faith you put in the England website but all of our forwards are supposedly a lot lighter than when they went in.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I think he’d be so much more effective if he was fast enough to pose more of a threat to go himself if the space opened up for him.

Confirmation that @TobyBeastTeague is definitely not secretly Kyle Eastmond

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

They have different stats because they have different play style. We all know that you can’t just look at stats, come on guys and gals.

I remember on the rugby club once they compared Salvi and G Smith and they had completely different styles and play styles while both touted at top of their position...different stats for different styles.

Although I do actually think LCD with more caps would be better than George long term huts just personal opinion. I think he just packs a punch which is often missing from the England team.

 

[FLOBALOB]

[QUOTE="l

Although I do actually think LCD with more caps would be better than George long term huts just personal opinion. I think he just packs a punch which is often missing from the England team.[/QUOTE]

Olyys mind is boggling enough without seeing that.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I just think it's a really really bad take.
What does he do better than George?

Have him starting and we'll just run into the issues Ireland have with Rory Best.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I just think it's a really really bad take.
What does he do better than George?

Have him starting and we'll just run into the issues Ireland have with Rory Best.

In the traditional sense I’d argue he’s a better forward than George. As you’ve said, he’s better at the ruck but he’s also a more abrasive defender, he carries harder, he gets through more work.

George is rightfully the starter but to flat out deny that there are aspects of the game where LCD is better is an uncharacteristically one-eyed assessment.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So he's an openside flanker then?

Don't understand where this concept that George doesn't have a crazy work rate and hit/carry hard has come from. He's one of the most dynamic hookers in the game while also excelling in the set piece.

Wanting to switch him out for a guy who's selling point is catching overthrown lineouts is madness.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

So he's an openside flanker then?

Don't understand where this concept that George doesn't have a crazy work rate and hit/carry hard has come from. He's one of the most dynamic hookers in the game while also excelling in the set piece.

Wanting to switch him out for a guy who's selling point is catching overthrown lineouts is madness.

So he’s an inside centre then? Since when have traits like physicality and ruck work been exclusively useful to opensides flankers? I guess Schalk Brits is now the best hooker of all time then if all we care about is dynamism.

You’re not even reading the argument now, I’ve literally just given a list of areas where LCD is better than George and you’ve replied with “HiS sElLiNg PoInT iS oVeRtHrOwN lInEoUts”. No one has suggested that LCD is better because of those two tries, that would indeed be madness.

George does have a very high work rate and he is very dynamic, has great hands and has a better set piece than LCD, that’s why he should start IMO. LCD is a better ball carrier, a more physical defender and better at the ruck, that’s why there’s an argument that he’s more suited to the role.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

that’s why there’s an argument that he’s more suited to the role.

It's a bad argument, though.
The minuscule perceived difference between their loose game doesn't overcome the massive actual difference in their set piece play.

If Hartley was fit LCD wouldn't be in the 23,
Hell if Taylor wasn't made of tissue paper he probably wouldn't be on the plane seeing as Taylor is as good elsewhere but better in the set piece.

Like I said: I can't see any argument why LCD would be in with a shout of starting any first choice game.