England World Cup Squad

Discussion in 'Rugby World Cup 2019' started by ncurd, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Are those Curry tackle stats accurate?
    Because sky said he made 18 last night, which means he made only 5 in the other 1.5games he played?
     

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  3. TobyBeastTeague

    TobyBeastTeague First XV

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    I used ESPN which isn’t the most reliable source. They had him as 2 vs Wales (he went off after 28 minutes), 7 vs Ireland (went off after 60 minutes) and 14 vs Italy.
     
  4. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Fair enough, I use ESPN whenever I'm looking at stats so even if they're inaccurate at least it's consistent across my analysis :p
     
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  5. Old Hooker

    Old Hooker First XV

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    Good work Toby. What conclusions do you draw from it?
     
  6. TobyBeastTeague

    TobyBeastTeague First XV

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    Mostly that Jamie George has been getting through an absurd amount of work.

    In regards to the back rowers, Wilson’s been monumental in both attack and defence. Curry’s been doing more with ball in hand and less defensively than I expected. Ludlam is a monster in defence but doesn’t offer much in attack. Vunipola making less metres than Wilson is surprising but not concerning as he’s a marked man and so rarely gets any space but does draw in defenders. Underhill looks pretty unimpressive in paper but he’s had the least game time (only 60 minutes) and has only played against an Ireland side that didn’t have much possession so he didn’t really get to show his defensive strengths.

    Think I’d go for:
    6. Wilson
    7. Curry
    8. Vunipola
    20. Underhill

    Wilson’s biggest strength is his freakish work rate. I know that you can’t draw too much from 100 minutes of game time but to average 24 tackles per game is a fantastic effort nonetheless. He wouldn’t be as effective coming off of the bench and offers a better carrying threat than Underhill.

    Underhill might be the most abrasive tackler on the planet. Bringing him off the bench, fresh, will help counter the bigger carrying units that teams tend to prefer utilising as finishers.

    Curry’s just too good not to start, even if his stats don’t really show it. He’s the only natural 7 in there, he’s bolted on for me and is a genuine contender for the best back rower in the world.
     
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  7. BPM

    BPM First XV

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    I’m a massive fan of Curry’s, but it’s a bit premature to give him that kind of accolade. He’s a ‘contender’ and if he has a stellar World Cup, then possibly more than that. Right now, the potential is there but there’s not enough of a body of work to make a claim of that magnitude.

    Wilson had a great game last night and again I’m a huge fan but his carrying stats are massively boosted by one break against significantly weaker opposition than the other three have faced.

    I’m in agreement with Toby that our best back row is 6. Wilson 7. Curry 8. Vunipola 20. Underhill.
     
  8. Nudger

    Nudger Academy Player

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    The pack seems settled it's the backs
    That have no consensus
     
  9. Chief Pete

    Chief Pete Academy Player

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    If he has an exceptional WC ie England's best player, team of the tournament and at least nominated for player of the tournament then he's in the conversation for best back rower, although the class of 2019 back rowers are weaker than previous years IMO...

    Also wondering if EJ is going to give more minutes to Marler or Genge in the group games in Vunipola's absence bearing in mind that Marler's our TH cover as well...
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  10. NickBD

    NickBD Academy Player

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    I would agree. I also don’t trust Underhill injury record especially is tournament with games so close together, no chance he’ll last. Having him just appear as a sub 25mins or so every game will key for England.
     
  11. FLOBALOB

    FLOBALOB Academy Player

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    Probably because you havent included all the time he was on the pitch in your calculations.
    Incidentally, FWIW how do LCDs compare?
     
  12. TobyBeastTeague

    TobyBeastTeague First XV

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    What do you mean? I’ve worked out the per game stat by taking the player’s total minutes (106 in George’s case), divided that by 80 to find the ‘amount of games’ a player has played (1.33 for George) and then divided the stat by the amount of games played.

    For example, George made a total of 24 tackles. 24 divided by 1.33 is 18.11, so statistically he’s averaged 18.11 tackles per game.

    I get that it’s far from a perfect system but it still gives a decent idea of how players have performed throughout the games.

    Now, for George vs LCD:

    Passes
    George: 5.19 (10)
    LCD: 2.89 (6)

    Runs
    LCD: 11.57 (24)
    George: 7.27 (14)

    Metres Run
    LCD: 27.47 (57)
    George: 25.97 (50)

    Clean Breaks
    LCD: 1.45 (3)
    George: 0.52 (1)

    Defenders Beaten
    George: 2.60 (5)
    LCD: 2.41 (5)

    Offloads
    George: 1.04 (2)
    LCD: 0.48 (1)

    Turnovers Conceded
    LCD: 0.96 (2)
    George: 2.60 (5)

    Tackles
    LCD: 16.39 (34)
    George: 12.47 (24)

    Missed Tackles
    George: 1.56 (3)
    LCD: 1.93 (4)

    Lineout Wins
    George: 9.87 (19)
    LCD: 8.67 (18)

    Penalties Conceded
    George: 0 (0)
    LCD: 0.96 (2)

    So on paper LCD appears to be the slightly better option. He makes more runs, more metres, more clean breaks, concedes less turnovers and makes more tackles. He gets through more work than George, but George offers a more rounded threat, making more passes, offloads and beating more defenders.

    Notably, George has the highest turnovers conceded stat of the forwards, getting turned over 2.60 times per game. The closest after that was Kruis, conceding only 1.34 turnovers per game. This is likely just because of all the running George has been doing in the wide channels so doesn’t receive as much support as the other forwards.

    Singleton didn't record a single stat having only played 6 minutes.

    Edit: Post has been updated
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  13. FLOBALOB

    FLOBALOB Academy Player

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    JG played 36 mins v wales, 54 v Ireland and 65 v Italy.making a total of 155mins or a factor of 1.94 not 1.33.
    LCDs is 169 mins or a factor of 2.11 not the factor youve used.
     
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  14. TobyBeastTeague

    TobyBeastTeague First XV

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    You’re absolutely right, my mistake. I put in LCD’s and George’s minutes the wrong way around for the Italy game. I’ll update my above post with the updated figures.
     
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  15. FLOBALOB

    FLOBALOB Academy Player

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    Thanks for updating.

    Although its only a small sample size , it does match up with stats for both players (club teams) for the last 2 years.
    For all the plaudits JG gets, LCD offers the much more dynamic/involved option. If he didnt suffer injuries at inopportune times and EJ involved him more
    before now ,I think he,d be the starter.
    BTW you didnt include tries scored in your stats:)
     
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  16. TobyBeastTeague

    TobyBeastTeague First XV

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    I know, I do have them on my spreadsheet but didn't include them on here as I just don't think they're particularly relevant. People know who's scored, I'm more interested in the tackles, runs, metres etc. as they're the kind of thing you don't see just from watching.

    But for anyone interested, LCD has the highest try scoring rate of any player in the squad and highest point scoring rate of anyone other than Farrell and Ford.
     
  17. ragerancher

    ragerancher First XV

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    That's down to being a magnet for opposition throws 5m from their own try line. It would be slightly unfair to include them as they give a distorted picture. Anyone could have scored those tries from that position.
     
  18. BPM

    BPM First XV

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    I think that’s an extremely bold statement and I doubt you’ll find too many that would choose LCD ahead of George. I’d agree that LCD’s dynamism and work rate are very good, but George’s are too, his basics (particularly lineout throwing) are considerably stronger and he’s a leader in the squad. Eddie has the first choice and understudy the right way round here IMO.
     
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  19. TobyBeastTeague

    TobyBeastTeague First XV

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    Exactly why I didn't include them to begin with.
     
  20. FLOBALOB

    FLOBALOB Academy Player

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    Over the last couple of years for their clubs LCD makes twice as many runs as George (av/game. 17.2 v 8.6) , metres made( ave. 29m v 19m), DB (2.6 V 1 ) and passes made (6.3v 3.4) Their tackling stats are virtually identical. That, for me ,shows quite a massive difference in their involvement in games. and it is something that bears out my own
    assessment when watching them play. IMO it would certainly more than compensate for the 5% ( hardly considerable) difference in the L/0 (1 throw in 20).
    Despite all highlight reel stuff, occasional offload etc JG doesn't offer anywhere near what LCD does. Why is that?
     
  21. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

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    Im a big fan of LCD(especially as a chiefs fan) and do rate him highly but for this team George is clear first choice in big game, his familiarity with the sarries counts as does he experience which is greater than LCD. LCD is a good impact player by any means
     
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