England World Cup Squad

[TRF_Olyy]

Are those Curry tackle stats accurate?
Because sky said he made 18 last night, which means he made only 5 in the other 1.5games he played?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Are those Curry tackle stats accurate?
Because sky said he made 18 last night, which means he made only 5 in the other 1.5games he played?

I used ESPN which isn't the most reliable source. They had him as 2 vs Wales (he went off after 28 minutes), 7 vs Ireland (went off after 60 minutes) and 14 vs Italy.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Fair enough, I use ESPN whenever I'm looking at stats so even if they're inaccurate at least it's consistent across my analysis

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

With there being a bit of a debate around who should start in our back row I've collected stats from the warm-up games to try and get a better idea of who has performed the best.

The number next to the name is the amount a player has averaged per game, the number in brackets is their total throughout the warm-ups. Kvesic only played 23 minutes and so I haven't included his stats as they skew the results a bit. Underneath I've included the highest and lowest scoring forwards from each category for reference.

Passes
Vunipola: 8.35 (31)
Tom Curry: 2.38 (5)
Ludlam: 2.24 (4)
Wilson: 1.60 (2)
Underhill: 1.33 (1)

George: 7.55 (10)
Cole: 0 (0)

Runs
Vunipola: 14.28 (53)
Curry: 13.33 (28)
Ludlam: 9.51 (17)
Wilson: 7.20 (9)
Underhill: 5.33 (4)

George: 10.57 (14)
Cole: 0.98 (2)

Metres Run
Wilson: 40.80 (51)
Vunipola: 37.44 (139)
Curry: 34.29 (72)
Underhill: 18.67 (14)
Ludlam: 14.55 (26)

George: 37.74 (50)
Cole: 0.49 (1)

Clean Breaks
Wilson: 2.40 (3)
Curry: 2.38 (5)
Underhill: 1.33 (1)
Ludlam: 0.56 (1)
Vunipola: 0.54 (2)

Launchbury: 1.46 (3)
Genge, Marler, Cole, Ewels, Kruis: 0 (0)

Defenders Beaten
Wilson: 4.80 (6)
Vunipola: 4.04 (15)
Curry: 3.33 (7)
Underhill: 2.67 (2)
Ludlam: 0.56 (1)

George: 3.77 (5)
Marler, Cole, Ewels, Kruis: 0 (0)

Offloads
Vunipola: 3.50 (13)
Ludlam: 1.12 (2)
Curry: 0.95 (2)
Underhill, Wilson: 0 (0)

Genge: 1.85 (4)
Marler, Cole, Sinckler, Ewels, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes: 0 (0)

Turnovers Conceded:
Ludlam, Underhill, Wilson: 0 (0)
Curry: 0.48 (1)
Vunipola: 1.08 (4)

Marler, Cole, Sinckler, Ewels, Launchbury: 0 (0)
George: 3.77 (5)

Tackles:
Wilson: 24.00 (30)
Ludlam: 19.02 (34)
Underhill: 17.33 (13)
Curry: 10.95 (23)
Vunipola: 9.70 (36)

George: 18.11 (24)
Cole: 8.29 (17)

Missed Tackles
Ludlam: 0 (0)
Curry: 0.48 (1)
Wilson: 0.80 (1)
Underhill: 1.33 (0.75)
Vunipola: 2.42 (9)

Sinckler: 0 (0)
Itoje: 3 (6)

Penalties Conceded
Curry, Underhill: 0 (0)
Vunipola: 0.54 (2)
Wilson: 0.80 (1)
Ludlam: 1.12 (2)

George: 0 (0)
Genge: 1.85 (4)

I've done the same for all of the forwards and can post them if people are interested but don't want to clog up the thread.

Good work Toby. What conclusions do you draw from it?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Good work Toby. What conclusions do you draw from it?

Mostly that Jamie George has been getting through an absurd amount of work.

In regards to the back rowers, Wilson's been monumental in both attack and defence. Curry's been doing more with ball in hand and less defensively than I expected. Ludlam is a monster in defence but doesn't offer much in attack. Vunipola making less metres than Wilson is surprising but not concerning as he's a marked man and so rarely gets any space but does draw in defenders. Underhill looks pretty unimpressive in paper but he's had the least game time (only 60 minutes) and has only played against an Ireland side that didn't have much possession so he didn't really get to show his defensive strengths.

Think I'd go for:
6. Wilson
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
20. Underhill

Wilson's biggest strength is his freakish work rate. I know that you can't draw too much from 100 minutes of game time but to average 24 tackles per game is a fantastic effort nonetheless. He wouldn't be as effective coming off of the bench and offers a better carrying threat than Underhill.

Underhill might be the most abrasive tackler on the planet. Bringing him off the bench, fresh, will help counter the bigger carrying units that teams tend to prefer utilising as finishers.

Curry's just too good not to start, even if his stats don't really show it. He's the only natural 7 in there, he's bolted on for me and is a genuine contender for the best back rower in the world.

 

[BPM]

I'm a massive fan of Curry's, but it's a bit premature to give him that kind of accolade. He's a 'contender' and if he has a stellar World Cup, then possibly more than that. Right now, the potential is there but there's not enough of a body of work to make a claim of that magnitude.

Wilson had a great game last night and again I'm a huge fan but his carrying stats are massively boosted by one break against significantly weaker opposition than the other three have faced.

I'm in agreement with Toby that our best back row is 6. Wilson 7. Curry 8. Vunipola 20. Underhill.

 

[Nudger]

The pack seems settled it's the backs
That have no consensus

 

[Chief Pete]

Curry's just too good not to start, even if his stats don't really show it. He's the only natural 7 in there, he's bolted on for me and is a genuine contender for the best back rower in the world.

If he has an exceptional WC ie England's best player, team of the tournament and at least nominated for player of the tournament then he's in the conversation for best back rower, although the class of 2019 back rowers are weaker than previous years IMO...

Also wondering if EJ is going to give more minutes to Marler or Genge in the group games in Vunipola's absence bearing in mind that Marler's our TH cover as well...

 

[NickBD]

Think I'd go for:
6. Wilson
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
20. Underhill

I would agree. I also don't trust Underhill injury record especially is tournament with games so close together, no chance he'll last. Having him just appear as a sub 25mins or so every game will key for England.

 

[FLOBALOB]

Mostly that Jamie George has been getting through an absurd amount of work.

.

Probably because you havent included all the time he was on the pitch in your calculations.
Incidentally, FWIW how do LCDs compare?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Probably because you havent included all the time he was on the pitch in your calculations.
Incidentally, FWIW how do LCDs compare?

What do you mean? I've worked out the per game stat by taking the player's total minutes (106 in George's case), divided that by 80 to find the 'amount of games' a player has played (1.33 for George) and then divided the stat by the amount of games played.

For example, George made a total of 24 tackles. 24 divided by 1.33 is 18.11, so statistically he's averaged 18.11 tackles per game.

I get that it's far from a perfect system but it still gives a decent idea of how players have performed throughout the games.

Now, for George vs LCD:

Passes
George: 5.19 (10)
LCD: 2.89 (6)

Runs
LCD: 11.57 (24)
George: 7.27 (14)

Metres Run
LCD: 27.47 (57)
George: 25.97 (50)

Clean Breaks
LCD: 1.45 (3)
George: 0.52 (1)

Defenders Beaten
George: 2.60 (5)
LCD: 2.41 (5)

Offloads
George: 1.04 (2)
LCD: 0.48 (1)

Turnovers Conceded
LCD: 0.96 (2)
George: 2.60 (5)

Tackles
LCD: 16.39 (34)
George: 12.47 (24)

Missed Tackles
George: 1.56 (3)
LCD: 1.93 (4)

Lineout Wins
George: 9.87 (19)
LCD: 8.67 (18)

Penalties Conceded
George: 0 (0)
LCD: 0.96 (2)

So on paper LCD appears to be the slightly better option. He makes more runs, more metres, more clean breaks, concedes less turnovers and makes more tackles. He gets through more work than George, but George offers a more rounded threat, making more passes, offloads and beating more defenders.

Notably, George has the highest turnovers conceded stat of the forwards, getting turned over 2.60 times per game. The closest after that was Kruis, conceding only 1.34 turnovers per game. This is likely just because of all the running George has been doing in the wide channels so doesn't receive as much support as the other forwards.

Singleton didn't record a single stat having only played 6 minutes.

Edit: Post has been updated

 

[FLOBALOB]

What do you mean? I've worked out the per game stat by taking the player's total minutes (106 in George's case), divided that by 80 to find the 'amount of games' a player has played (1.33 for George) and then divided the stat by the amount of games played.

For example, George made a total of 24 tackles. 24 divided by 1.33 is 18.11, so statistically he's averaged 18.11 tackles per game.

I get that it's far from a perfect system but it still gives a decent idea of how players have performed throughout the games.

Now, for George vs LCD:

Passes
George: 7.55 (10)
LCD: 2.14 (6)

Runs
George: 10.57 (14)
LCD: 8.57 (24)

Metres Run
George: 37.74 (50)
LCD: 20.36 (57)

Clean Breaks
LCD: 1.07 (3)
George: 0.75 (1)

Defenders Beaten
George: 3.77 (5)
LCD: 1.79 (5)

Offloads
George: 1.51 (2)
LCD: 0.36 (1)

Turnovers Conceded
LCD: 0.71 (2)
George: 3.77 (5)

Tackles
George: 18.11 (24)
LCD: 12.14 (34)

Missed Tackles
LCD: 1.43 (4)
George: 2.26 (3)

Lineout Wins
George: 14.34 (19)
LCD: 6.43 (18)

Penalties Conceded
George: 0 (0)
LCD: 0.71 (2)

So George wins in every category apart from clean breaks, turnovers conceded and missed tackles.

Notably, George has the highest turnovers conceded stat of the forwards, getting turned over 3.77 times per game. The closest after that was Kruis, conceding only 1.34 turnovers per game. This is likely just because of all the running George has been doing in the wide channels so doesn't receive as much support as the other forwards.

Singleton didn't record a single stat having only played 6 minutes.

JG played 36 mins v wales, 54 v Ireland and 65 v Italy.making a total of 155mins or a factor of 1.94 not 1.33.
LCDs is 169 mins or a factor of 2.11 not the factor youve used.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

JG played 36 mins v wales, 54 v Ireland and 65 v Italy.making a total of 155mins or a factor of 1.94 not 1.33.
LCDs is 169 mins or a factor of 2.11 not the factor youve used.

You're absolutely right, my mistake. I put in LCD's and George's minutes the wrong way around for the Italy game. I'll update my above post with the updated figures.

 

[FLOBALOB]

What do you mean? I've worked out the per game stat by taking the player's total minutes (106 in George's case), divided that by 80 to find the 'amount of games' a player has played (1.33 for George) and then divided the stat by the amount of games played.

For example, George made a total of 24 tackles. 24 divided by 1.33 is 18.11, so statistically he's averaged 18.11 tackles per game.

I get that it's far from a perfect system but it still gives a decent idea of how players have performed throughout the games.

Now, for George vs LCD:

Passes
George: 5.19 (10)
LCD: 2.89 (6)

Runs
LCD: 11.57 (24)
George: 7.27 (14)

Metres Run
LCD: 27.47 (57)
George: 25.97 (50)

Clean Breaks
LCD: 1.45 (3)
George: 0.52 (1)

Defenders Beaten
George: 2.60 (5)
LCD: 2.41 (5)

Offloads
George: 1.04 (2)
LCD: 0.48 (1)

Turnovers Conceded
LCD: 0.96 (2)
George: 2.60 (5)

Tackles
LCD: 16.39 (34)
George: 12.47 (24)

Missed Tackles
George: 1.56 (3)
LCD: 1.93 (4)

Lineout Wins
George: 9.87 (19)
LCD: 8.67 (18)

Penalties Conceded
George: 0 (0)
LCD: 0.96 (2)

So on paper LCD appears to be the slightly better option. He makes more runs, more metres, more clean breaks, concedes less turnovers and makes more tackles. He gets through more work than George, but George offers a more rounded threat, making more passes, offloads and beating more defenders.

Notably, George has the highest turnovers conceded stat of the forwards, getting turned over 2.60 times per game. The closest after that was Kruis, conceding only 1.34 turnovers per game. This is likely just because of all the running George has been doing in the wide channels so doesn't receive as much support as the other forwards.

Singleton didn't record a single stat having only played 6 minutes.

Edit: Post has been updated

Thanks for updating.

Although its only a small sample size , it does match up with stats for both players (club teams) for the last 2 years.
For all the plaudits JG gets, LCD offers the much more dynamic/involved option. If he didnt suffer injuries at inopportune times and EJ involved him more
before now ,I think he,d be the starter.
BTW you didnt include tries scored in your stats

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Thanks for updating.

Although its only a small sample size , it does match up with stats for both players (club teams) for the last 2 years.
For all the plaudits JG gets, LCD offers the much more dynamic/involved option. If he didnt suffer injuries at inopportune times and EJ involved him more
before now ,I think he,d be the starter.
BTW you didnt include tries scored in your stats

I know, I do have them on my spreadsheet but didn't include them on here as I just don't think they're particularly relevant. People know who's scored, I'm more interested in the tackles, runs, metres etc. as they're the kind of thing you don't see just from watching.

But for anyone interested, LCD has the highest try scoring rate of any player in the squad and highest point scoring rate of anyone other than Farrell and Ford.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I know, I do have them on my spreadsheet but didn't include them on here as I just don't think they're particularly relevant. People know who's scored, I'm more interested in the tackles, runs, metres etc. as they're the kind of thing you don't see just from watching.

But for anyone interested, LCD has the highest try scoring rate of any player in the squad and highest point scoring rate of anyone other than Farrell and Ford.

That's down to being a magnet for opposition throws 5m from their own try line. It would be slightly unfair to include them as they give a distorted picture. Anyone could have scored those tries from that position.

 

[BPM]

Thanks for updating.

Although its only a small sample size , it does match up with stats for both players (club teams) for the last 2 years.
For all the plaudits JG gets, LCD offers the much more dynamic/involved option. If he didnt suffer injuries at inopportune times and EJ involved him more
before now ,I think he,d be the starter.
BTW you didnt include tries scored in your stats

I think that's an extremely bold statement and I doubt you'll find too many that would choose LCD ahead of George. I'd agree that LCD's dynamism and work rate are very good, but George's are too, his basics (particularly lineout throwing) are considerably stronger and he's a leader in the squad. Eddie has the first choice and understudy the right way round here IMO.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

That's down to being a magnet for opposition throws 5m from their own try line. It would be slightly unfair to include them as they give a distorted picture. Anyone could have scored those tries from that position.

Exactly why I didn't include them to begin with.

 

[FLOBALOB]

I think that's an extremely bold statement and I doubt you'll find too many that would choose LCD ahead of George. I'd agree that LCD's dynamism and work rate are very good, but George's are too, his basics (particularly lineout throwing) are considerably stronger and he's a leader in the squad. Eddie has the first choice and understudy the right way round here IMO.

Over the last couple of years for their clubs LCD makes twice as many runs as George (av/game. 17.2 v 8.6) , metres made( ave. 29m v 19m), DB (2.6 V 1 ) and passes made (6.3v 3.4) Their tackling stats are virtually identical. That, for me ,shows quite a massive difference in their involvement in games. and it is something that bears out my own
assessment when watching them play. IMO it would certainly more than compensate for the 5% ( hardly considerable) difference in the L/0 (1 throw in 20).
Despite all highlight reel stuff, occasional offload etc JG doesn't offer anywhere near what LCD does. Why is that?

 

[Scotty]

Over the last couple of years for their clubs LCD makes twice as many runs as George (av/game. 17.2 v 8.6) , metres made( ave. 29m v 19m), DB (2.6 V 1 ) and passes made (6.3v 3.4) Their tackling stats are virtually identical. That, for me ,shows quite a massive difference in their involvement in games. and it is something that bears out my own
assessment when watching them play. IMO it would certainly more than compensate for the 5% ( hardly considerable) difference in the L/0 (1 throw in 20).
Despite all highlight reel stuff, occasional offload etc JG doesn't offer anywhere near what LCD does. Why is that?

Im a big fan of LCD(especially as a chiefs fan) and do rate him highly but for this team George is clear first choice in big game, his familiarity with the sarries counts as does he experience which is greater than LCD. LCD is a good impact player by any means