[RWC2019][Pool B] Round 1 - New Zealand vs. South Africa (21/09/2019)

[Zapphod]

On the scrum stuff, at the time watching it live it looked like the SA lad was binding on the NZ arm, which was causing the NZ elbow to fall.

In fact in the video @petite posted you actually see the bind move from the shoulder blade area at the initial hit to the upper arm in both instances where you can see that area of the scrum. So if you want to be pedantic, in those instances should have been a penalty to NZ under 11d.

While I see what you are talking about and had the letter of the law been followed it could well added to the penalty count.
I tend toward supporting the refs actions of letting play continue as neither incident prevented the team with the feed from getting good clean ball thus speeding up the game.
I guess where South Africa had the feed a penalty to NZ may have been warranted but if these things had been a genuine concern to either team they would have raised it after the match although I can't imagine either coach going full on Cheika about anything.

 

[BobbyM]

While I see what you are talking about and had the letter of the law been followed it could well added to the penalty count.
I tend toward supporting the refs actions of letting play continue as neither incident prevented the team with the feed from getting good clean ball thus speeding up the game.
I guess where South Africa had the feed a penalty to NZ may have been warranted but if these things had been a genuine concern to either team they would have raised it after the match although I can't imagine either coach going full on Cheika about anything.

When I was on the pitch as a 9 I’d be chip chipping in the refs ear pointing out the illegal bind

However as a fan and like you I am relatively relaxed that the game continued.

I did just find it odd that a video showing NZ “infringements” started with a bunch of clips where the penalty should’ve of been blown against the Boks.

 

[Paulo]

When I was on the pitch as a 9 I’d be chip chipping in the refs ear pointing out the illegal bind

However as a fan and like you I am relatively relaxed that the game continued.

I did just find it odd that a video showing NZ “infringements” started with a bunch of clips where the penalty should’ve of been blown against the Boks.

It just shows how salty Petite actually is and how far he has to stretch facts to portray the narrative he was trying to drive with his video. Clearly it is a narrative based on ABs being favoured by officials and all opposition being up against 16 men when they play. Despite his protestations and illusions of grandeur about trying to get AB fans to admit the ABs got away with a few. We did, so did the SBs, petite just needs to be man enough to admit his agenda, and the fact the SBs got away with quite a lot too. Potentially a YC here or there too, but still haven’t seen him admit that.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

For those I've bored before I apologise. I love (and I mean love) a good discussion about the laws of the game. I was kind of hoping that the salty saffer video was tongue in cheek but a few of my Bok friends are now using it as evidence of a conspiracy to ref them out of a game that they were outplayed in. The word used has been "cheat" as in "Garces is a cheat"...... Bizarre, what motivation does he have?

I imagine a technical infraction was committed in almost every single phase of play. I could spend all day reviewing and pointing them out but, well, life is happening...........

FWIW I thought Garces was terrible (I often do). Some simply inexplicable decision making that impacted both sides. How ever many times I watch it, I can't get PSDT onside in the passage of play that led to the Bok try. There's either a tackle that establishes offside lines or more likely a ruck.......... Anyone got a different view?

For me it's just evidence of one more thing the All Blacks are better at than any other team. That is understanding what the referee will allow and adapting to it. It's not a question of a ref favouring them, it's simply they work out the boundaries and play to them quicker than the other team. In this game case in point was the approach of New Zealand ball carriers. Garces has a different interpretation of the following (in respect of tackled players responsibilities):

"Make the ball available so that play can continue by releasing, passing or pushing the ball in any direction except forward. They may place the ball in any direction."

Garces seems happy for "jacklers" to just get smashed to pieces when contesting the ball. For me it's poor reffing and puts players in a dangerous position as rather than a quick contest which may be won / lost or a pen conceded players simply continue to smash in to the contesting player until they "lose". He's also lax on binding / staying on feet type stuff. However, he's reasonably consistent in this regard (not 100% but good enough to gamble on). The All Blacks see this happen and simply start holding on to the ball in the tackle preventing any contest knowing that 9 times out of 10 Garces will allow the likes of Louw / Vermeulen to take a fearful hammering (virtually impossible to "survive")before giving a penalty. So the choices for the carrying player are:

a: Play exactly to the laws and get turned over
b: Play to the ref and pretty much guarantee possession

Only the most naive would expect any professional to do anything but b: In fact I would suspect any top-level coach to insist on their players doing so.

This is just one example. The All Blacks have superior game intelligence and will exploit everything they can. From entry angles, "flat passing", blocking lines, managing the scrum to their advantage etc. etc.. This on top of their already formidable skill-set makes them damn hard to beat. Not impossible just very, very hard. Every now and then they will run across a ref who they struggle to read or who has interpretations that they find it more difficult to work around. Usually they adapt but when they can't / don't they become more vulnerable.

 

[Zapphod]

I think that both teams had worked out the referee by the second quarter of the game and simply played to his whistle which is really the only sensible thing to do.

Personally I didn't think much of the game at all, both teams showed flashes of what they are capable of doing but neither showed their entire capability, as I have said before it was a game neither side wanted to lose but neither side was prepared to put all their cards on the table to win.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Discussion around refereeing decisions are good as it helps people understand the game better. However the people who whine that a ref is 'against them etc.' really annoy me. They have a few examples where a decision goes against them but then are oblivious/ignore all the decisions that went for them. Rugby is a complicated game, your are going to get 50/50 decisions or even decisions that should have gone your way, go against you.

 

[Gena_ZA]

Well this thread got side tracked badly, taste the salt everywhere...
All Blacks beat the Boks fair and square, old pain point of not switching to plan B again, maybe we just can't.
Faf were poor, Willie nowhere, Kolisi a passenger

Boks not out of it but will have to stand up big time against the Irish

 

[petite]

It just shows how salty Petite actually is and how far he has to stretch facts to portray the narrative he was trying to drive with his video. Clearly it is a narrative based on ABs being favoured by officials and all opposition being up against 16 men when they play. Despite his protestations and illusions of grandeur about trying to get AB fans to admit the ABs got away with a few. We did, so did the SBs, petite just needs to be man enough to admit his agenda, and the fact the SBs got away with quite a lot too. Potentially a YC here or there too, but still haven’t seen him admit that.

no man I never said this! go back and read my posts
I'm not salty or biased and never said the abs won cos the ref helped. or mentioned 16 men team. you are making that up.
I said the Ab got away with 2 reds and got the best part of a bad work by the ref.
happens all the time. did not blame it on the AB's either.
I agreed the ref was wrong both ways just think the bocks took the worst part.
Moody 's shoulder charge was brutal, to a guy on the floor and strait to the head he should have been cited. he wasn't.
no kiwI dared to refute this, instead they insist that the bocKS goy away with an off side try witch I agreed.
the only ones not asuming they got real lucky to finish this game with 15 players are you.
just asume it. mania did. no big deal.
why don't you go to the video and watch moodys charge. then come back and argue how that is not a red instead of calling me all sorts of things. (ilusión of grandour, I'm a joke I'm an ass hole and the insults keep on coming. just don't care call me what you want
no one, repeat: no one a dressed moodys cheating (only larksea explaned his position about moodys 3 time tripod) everybody else just started to insult me In every way posible
just don't get it.
last post this is boring

 

[Geralt_]

Well this thread got side tracked badly, taste the salt everywhere...
All Blacks beat the Boks fair and square, old pain point of not switching to plan B again, maybe we just can't.
Faf were poor, Willie nowhere, Kolisi a passenger

Boks not out of it but will have to stand up big time against the Irish

Good luck in the knockout stages.

What needs to be taken from this from all this arguing is that Garces is not fit ref the knock-out games.
This was a disastrous performance from him and has created animosity between fans. He couldn't even get basic calls correct like the offside interception and failed to take 2nd looks at any foul play (Read's action and the head highs on Ardie).
Surely this performance will exclude him from the running for the semi-finals and final where the stakes are too high to have such an indecisive confused official.

The touch judge team should also be under question, as they should have helped.
Sorry to bring up old wounds, but that bottle he made in the Lions series can't be repeated either.

 

[Paulo]

no man I never said this! go back and read my posts
I'm not salty or biased and never said the abs won cos the ref helped. or mentioned 16 men team. you are making that up.
I said the Ab got away with 2 reds and got the best part of a bad work by the ref.
happens all the time. did not blame it on the AB's either.
I agreed the ref was wrong both ways just think the bocks took the worst part.
Moody 's shoulder charge was brutal, to a guy on the floor and strait to the head he should have been cited. he wasn't.
no kiwI dared to refute this, instead they insist that the bocKS goy away with an off side try witch I agreed.
the only ones not asuming they got real lucky to finish this game with 15 players are you.
just asume it. mania did. no big deal.
why don't you go to the video and watch moodys charge. then come back and argue how that is not a red instead of calling me all sorts of things. (ilusión of grandour, I'm a joke I'm an ass hole and the insults keep on coming. just don't care call me what you want
no one, repeat: no one a dressed moodys cheating (only larksea explaned his position about moodys 3 time tripod) everybody else just started to insult me In every way posible
just don't get it.
last post this is
QUOTE]

When you produce and distribute a video, it’s hard to take you seriously. And for the record, I don’t. You clearly have an agenda and unbiased and clear critique of the AB performance is not high on the agenda. Which is fine, just don’t pretend that your true benevolent purpose was to inspire rugby fandom to a greater level of fandom.

 

[petite]

75%of the penaltys in the match where awarded to NZ . but no they did not benefit from it. (Rugby dump.com)

 

[petite]

I did not produce such video is in every rugby page I visited.
I posted it with the footnote " this can't be overlooked" 75 % of the penalties gone NZ way it does not seem like the ref was bad either way. ( repeat I never talked about conspiracy )

 

[petite]

Good luck in the knockout stages.

What needs to be taken from this from all this arguing is that Garces is not fit ref the knock-out games.
This was a disastrous performance from him and has created animosity between fans. He couldn't even get basic calls correct like the offside interception and failed to take 2nd looks at any foul play (Read's action and the head highs on Ardie).
Surely this performance will exclude him from the running for the semi-finals and final where the stakes are too high to have such an indecisive confused official.

The touch judge team should also be under question, as they should have helped.
Sorry to bring up old wounds, but that bottle he made in the Lions series can't be repeated either.

you still avoid moody shoulder charge
today a Samoan was red carded (correctly ) for a way less dangerous charge. didn't see the whole game it's been said there should have been more

 

[Yoshimitsu]

you still avoid moody shoulder charge
today a Samoan was red carded (correctly ) for a way less dangerous charge. didn't see the whole game it's been said there should have been more

Er. No they weren't. There were two yellow cards for Samoans that both imo should have been straight reds. To be fair both attempts to "tackle" make Moody's nudge on Marx look like a gentle massage.

Here's one

https://twitter.com/i/status/1176451721461153792

further edit this is better

https://twitter.com/i/status/1176457479678566400

 

[Geralt_]

you still avoid moody shoulder charge
today a Samoan was red carded (correctly ) for a way less dangerous charge. didn't see the whole game it's been said there should have been more

At an attempt to come to an impasse, you just antagonize me again with your crap.

Take a day off pal.

 

[Geralt_]

Er. No they weren't. There were two yellow cards for Samoans that both imo should have been straight reds. To be fair both attempts to "tackle" make Moody's nudge on Marx look like a gentle massage.

Here's one

https://twitter.com/i/status/1176451721461153792

further edit this is better

https://twitter.com/i/status/1176457479678566400

Time to hit the ignore button on this delusional salty chap (petite).

Doesn't even know what day it is.

 

[petite]

Er. No they weren't. There were two yellow cards for Samoans that both imo should have been straight reds. To be fair both attempts to "tackle" make Moody's nudge on Marx look like a gentle massage.

Here's one

https://twitter.com/i/status/1176451721461153792

further edit this is better

https://twitter.com/i/status/1176457479678566400

I asume that the Samoan my have attempt something else (said it was correctly red) cos both players where in movement moody charged a guy on the floor In fact he did it twice both time's with no arms one in the head one In the body. I clearly see the arm in marx head you don't?

 

[Zapphod]

Time to hit the ignore button on this delusional salty chap (petite).

Doesn't even know what day it is.

While I understand the desire to do that I would point out that doing so gives him free reign to push his agenda which seems to have been reduced to childishly thumbs downing everything.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

I asume that the Samoan my have attempt something else (said it was correctly red) cos both players where in movement moody charged a guy on the floor In fact he did it twice both time's with no arms one in the head one In the body. I clearly see the arm in marx head you don't?

Sorry you may be conversing in not your first language? I'm struggling to see what you are saying but I'll do my best.

Point 1 - The Samoan attempted tackles were in my opinion clear red cards (but were given as yellow due to mitigation). If you look at what World Rugby have produced i.e. this https://www.world.rugby/news/424953?lang=en I'm not entirely sure how it could be any clearer. At 5:46 of the video it shows a red card offence without significant mitigation. Tommy Taylor gets proper smashed but even so it's mild compared to what the two Samoan players did today. In my view the TMO in particular bottled it (an English expression meaning they were too cowardly to make a difficult call)

Point 2 - I'll indulge you here. The Moody / Marx incident looks dodgy to me. Moody does make contact with Marx's head. However, Marx is falling (quickly at that) and that could be seen as mitigation. It is however still worth looking at. But what's lacking in your analysis (and I suggest has annoyed some people) is an attempt to be even handed. If you're going to look at Moody knocking Marx you're going to have to look at pretty much every breakdown involving Savea and for that matter Duane Vermuelen and Francois Louw. Due to Garces being very generous about clean out technique (do whatever you like) those three players got absolutely battered. I'd bet decent money that if you gave me the full match footage I could find evidence of Etzebeth or Mossert (or a.nother) belting Savea in the head / neck at a ruck.

If Garces was biased, why was he? What's the motivation? The only one I can actually think of is that Erasmus would be better off keeping his thoughts on refs to himself. By stating boldly that the All Blacks get better treatment what did he think Garces would do? Red card the whole team to cheer him up?

 

[petite]

Sorry you may be conversing in not your first language? I'm struggling to see what you are saying but I'll do my best.

Point 1 - The Samoan attempted tackles were in my opinion clear red cards (but were given as yellow due to mitigation). If you look at what World Rugby have produced i.e. this https://www.world.rugby/news/424953?lang=en I'm not entirely sure how it could be any clearer. At 5:46 of the video it shows a red card offence without significant mitigation. Tommy Taylor gets proper smashed but even so it's mild compared to what the two Samoan players did today. In my view the TMO in particular bottled it (an English expression meaning they were too cowardly to make a difficult call)

Point 2 - I'll indulge you here. The Moody / Marx incident looks dodgy to me. Moody does make contact with Marx's head. However, Marx is falling (quickly at that) and that could be seen as mitigation. It is however still worth looking at. But what's lacking in your analysis (and I suggest has annoyed some people) is an attempt to be even handed. If you're going to look at Moody knocking Marx you're going to have to look at pretty much every breakdown involving Savea and for that matter Duane Vermuelen and Francois Louw. Due to Garces being very generous about clean out technique (do whatever you like) those three players got absolutely battered. I'd bet decent money that if you gave me the full match footage I could find evidence of Etzebeth or Mossert (or a.nother) belting Savea in the head / neck at a ruck.

If Garces was biased, why was he? What's the motivation? The only one I can actually think of is that Erasmus would be better off keeping his thoughts on refs to himself. By stating boldly that the All Blacks get better treatment what did he think Garces would do? Red card the whole team to cheer him up?

1 yes not my fist language ( the damn corrector makes it more difficult)
2 about the Samoans that is what I said the red was good (and didn't see the game but heard there where 2 more that went umpunished) they where yellows tryed to see the vids you posted. where unavailable here in arg
3 thanks for taking the time to answer about moody. in an adult way somo morrón is sending me privates with insults)
I see your point about moody but my dossapointment comes front the fact that there was no action at the moment, no tMO, and no citing. the contact is there both times in a second view is true that Marx slightly slips down. but nothing?
4) 8 hundred times I said no bias no complot the ref was **** and it happend to go the AB way. doesn't mean graces did it on purpose. did not say that ever. just posted a vid I found on line and then read that 75 % of the penalties went the ab way. in the video I counted 5 reasonable penalties that weren't called. did not jump to any conclusion this **** happens. this time it went your way
I said you where lucky to finish the game with 15 players. don't see where's the big deal.
I've seen the neck roll you mention don't think was so bad. certenly it was penalty. not much more. let's move on I guess my English sucks and no one is getting what I say.
like Maradona's goal to the English yes we where lucky to get away with it. ( no one would say the contrary no matter how many bad calls the ref did to argentina)
hope I'm clear. if you want to go on with this let's move it to the specific thread. it is annoying to everybody else
thanks