1st centre: creator or crasher

[Tadginator]

Just wondering what style of player you think a first centre/2nd five eighth should be. Should he be a ball carrier like maa nonu and jauzion or a creator like James O'Connor and Luke McAlister or even a set up like sonny bill williams?

 

[dullonien]

This is difficult to answer. I personally prefer to see a creator at inside centre, but recently it's become obvious that a big ball carrier at 12 is the way to go, because it's become so important to cross the gain-line as soon as possible. I think Wales' performances when Roberts is playing well compared to how they are when he doesn't demonstrates this very well.

So in the end, I've gotta choose between what I prefer, and what is actually better at the moment. I'll go with what's currently better.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Either - I don't think there's a definitive answer

I like having a Luke McAlister/Olly Barkley type "kind of flyhalf" at 12 and I also like seeing players like Ma'a Nonu playing there

 

[big ginger 8]

Depends on how the team wants to play. Also who says you can't have someone who does both?

 

[Draggs]

I know I'll get flamed for it, but Henson was perfect mix between the two in 2005/2008. He is a great playmaker, but able to break through tackles and was very reliable in defense.
Same goes for Jean de Villiers. He is a big lad, but has set up Fourie and the other SA outside backs up countless times.

 

[William18]

I would rather have a Ma'a Nonu type player and I think that he has redefined that position. It is nice to have a second kicking option but I think that is something of a nice-to-have rather than a necessity.

 

[nickdnz]

I know I'll get flamed for it, but Henson was perfect mix between the two in 2005/2008. He is a great playmaker, but able to break through tackles and was very reliable in defense.
Same goes for Jean de Villiers. He is a big lad, but has set up Fourie and the other SA outside backs up countless times.

Umm, except he clearly hasn't. Nothing creative at all about JdV.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Either - I don't think there's a definitive answer

This.

My preference is for back lines to be split into a couple of broad units. 9, 10 and 12 are the playmakers with 11, 13, 14 and 15 as strike runners. I love petit general scrum halves like Morgan Parra, Dimitri Yachvili and JB Ellisalde who do as much playmaking as a flyhalf. I like flyhalves who are as adept at attacking the gainline as they are at controlling a game with their boot. As such, I like a safety valve extra playmaker at 12 who can take pressure off his 10. With playmakers at 9, 10 and 12, there should be plenty of room created for the outside centre, wingers and full back to attack the wider channels.

In short, I prefer creative 12s who'll think about passing the ball to bosh merchants who have no peripheral vision and never pass the ball.

 

[gingergenius]

Ma'a Nonu is so much more than a crasher. He straightens the line beautifully, has a wonderful pair of hands - he's a much better footballer than people give him credit for.

Midfields have to have balance. A team with a big crashing 13 needs two playmakers inside him to release him into space, use decoys etc. If you play a crashing 12, he needs footballing skills as well, or at least offloading skills, and a good 13 must be chosen to pick lines off him.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

I think that sayin that Nonu and Jauzion are "just ball carriers" is a bit simplistic. They're not like, say, Jon Davies. They both can pas, offload and even kick in Jauzion's case. I think they're the definition of a modern 12. Frans Steyn has the exact style for the position, should be used there more often imo.

 

[Peat]

Both is the preferable answer. They don't have to be great at both; take Nonu, he's clearly a better crash merchant than a passer, but because he has both options it creates uncertainty. Every international 12 should be able to do that really.

Increasingly, I prefer my 12 to be a bosher first though. Simply because you need to keep defences honest these days. If they can leave just one man to mark the 12, then the outer channels will be too congested. But I will happily accept a 12 who has the power and feet to threaten a gainline but is mainly a passer first and foremost.

 

[Tomsey]

it really depends on the needs of your team. most teams will be better off with a gain-line-getter-overer who can pass as well. having another kicking option ins't really necessary except right at the top level of rugby and even then its not vital. nonu is good example of this. i wouldn't say nonu is a simple crash ball merchant, he has a great pass and good vision.

 

[formerlyfastwing]

crasher, it's so important to be on the front foot.

 

[ranger]

Creator, the forwards should be providing the front foot ball

 

[UilamOsa]

More than how you want your team to play - it's more about how your backline functions best - starting from your 1st Five.

In this I think Tana Umaga has to have been NZ's most complete 2nd5 balancing between the crash/bash and the creative - he could suit all types of first five. As earlier stated De Villiers is (was) pretty awesome at 12 as well, great physicality and vision.

I think Aussie would be best suited if they are to stick with Cooper, that he has a Creative at 12 (Barnes/Giteau/O'Connor) and then a Basher at 13 (AAC)

Apart from the whole ego thing - I was always worried that if Wilkinson/Henson/O'driscoll got together for the Lions tour in 05 and clicked, it could've been the winning of the series.

 

[Draggs]

Yeah, I suppose I'd classify de Villiers as a setup player like SBW.
Carter and Mauger were a great combination for the Crusaders and All Blacks, I think Carter/McAlister would have been another good pairing.

 

[Darwin]

It has been really interesting to see how the 12 position has evolved in New Zealand over the last 5 years. Traditionally New Zealand has always played a creative player at 12 - many players who have played at 12 for the AB's over recent years (e.g. Walter Little, Aaron Mauger, Dan Carter, Luke MacAlister) have been equally adept at 10 as they have at 12. Umaga was one of the very few AB's 12's that didn't really fit into this 'second 10' mold. The New Zealand names for the positions - first-five, second-five, and centre - even suggest that the 10 and 12 are more similar than the 12 and 13. However over the last 4 years this has changed almost completely, with most NZ super rugby franchises opting for a bigger crash-ball option at 12, rather than playing a second 10 there. It is not to say that these players aren't good passers, just that they don't necessarily have the play-making skills (especially the kicking skills) of a 10.

This change is mainly due to the change in the job-description of another position: 9. It seems strange that a change in a position such as halfback would change the midfield make-up, but I will explain. Because defenses are up so quickly these days the ability to create anything in the midfield is diminished. Because of this many coaches have opted to bring there playmakers in much closer to the breakdown, and hence most teams now have a playmaker at 9. Rather than being solely distributors (with the ability to run occasionally) most modern halfbacks now need to possess a very strong kicking game, and be very creative players. I've heard Graham Henry mention on a number of occasions that the modern 9 has as much (if not more) responsibility for playmaking as the 10 does. Because of this players like Alby Mathewson - probably the best NZ halfback in terms of passing/running - loses out to players such as Andy Ellis, who is much more of a playmaker.

The question is: When you have a playmaker at 9 and a playmaker at 10 do you really need a playmaker at 12? Most coaches have decided that it isn't really required - by the time the ball gets out to 12 the ability to create anything is very much diminished in any case. Personally I think the 12 needs to have a strong passing game, but the don't really require the playmaking/kicking skills of a 10 anymore. There is still a place for someone like Luke MacAlister, who despite being a very creative player is also equally adept at taking the ball to the line given his size/power.

Not sure if this trend of a bigger 12 is apparent in Club Rugby world-wide, but at international level it appears most countries have opted for a much bigger crash-ball option at 12. Interestingly Australian Super Rugby franchises have generally stuck with a more creative player at 12 but Deans has opted for a big crash-ball option (like nearly every other international team), and has been almost universally criticized for this!

 

[Kiwiwomble]

This.

My preference is for back lines to be split into a couple of broad units. 9, 10 and 12 are the playmakers with 11, 13, 14 and 15 as strike runners. I love petit general scrum halves like Morgan Parra, Dimitri Yachvili and JB Ellisalde who do as much playmaking as a flyhalf. I like flyhalves who are as adept at attacking the gainline as they are at controlling a game with their boot. As such, I like a safety valve extra playmaker at 12 who can take pressure off his 10. With playmakers at 9, 10 and 12, there should be plenty of room created for the outside centre, wingers and full back to attack the wider channels.

In short, I prefer creative 12s who'll think about passing the ball to bosh merchants who have no peripheral vision and never pass the ball.

this...about that

there is no definative answer but if you HAD to nail it down i would say both, I always thought Aaron Mauger was a good combo of both, in the same match you could see him break the line and steak away or put in the chip/grubber for someone else.

It really does depend on who's outside/inside him thought, with someone like Dan who creates you can have a ball runner but if you had more of a kicking first five then you would need someone more creative next to him

I agree with you there darwin, I was wondering if we couldn'd start playing our next first five (who ever it might be) at second five, thats exactly what we did with Dan and it seemed to work! slade/cruden and 2nd five and nonu on the bench to come on and tidy up

 

[formerlyfastwing]

Creator, the forwards should be providing the front foot ball

Yeah but that doesn't always happen. It's nice to the that physical play both in attack and defense. Having a 12 that can break the line more often than not allows you so many other optionos.

 

[profitius]

I prefer a creator but these days midfield seems to be crowded with no space at all and thats why crashers are favoured by coaches. You know what you're going to get.

A creator can be more effective in a backline that is well coached and that runs good lines. If you have players running good lines, a good passer can put them through gaps or kick to relieve the pressure.