[2013/14 Pro12] Round 21

[Leonormous Boozer]

Just got in..... What the **** happened?

 

[Peat]

He's given 4 cards and it didn't get better after he dished out an early red. Nothing more he could have done to set the tone. Blame should lie on the players for how the game has been played. It's not the ref's responsibility to make sure the game is good. Ulster gave away 5 penalties in the first 10 minutes of the second half. Is that the ref's fault? Absolutely not.

What a strange try.

The early tone was farce and that's what the game has been.

Not hiding from Ulster's poor discipline and profligate use of the ball. That's been bad.

And so too has the refereeing been. By any consistent standard you might ask of from the ref, he has failed somewhere. So, you say he has no duty to the game? Fine. Lets make it so. But you say you want refs to to punish people heavily. He hasn't done that. He hasn't - and I take back what I said earlier - been consistent with his cards. He hasn't caught the level of detail you'd expect from a ref doing this level, such as the right man to card.

But - as I said - in some areas the rules tied his hands. The authorities need to make expectations of reffing more explicit. They need to do that urgently. Right now, there is too much doubt on how refs should approach matches, what they should do, what players should expect and so on. Its unfair to all involved and is making games worse. They need to change that and they need to ensure the right ref is there for the right game. Not a game for a novice.


Hendy probably my Ulster man of the match. His impact at the breakdown has been vastly improved recently. Darren Cave looked like a man possessed when he came on. Paul Marshall has hit a good time to get back to his best form. Andrew Warwick, fair dos to him for clinging on in.

Johann Muller, you'll be missed



Got to ask what the hell's going on when Leinster have scrum superiority and man superiority and can't win better than that. I'd heard griping about Mark O'Connor and dismissed it, but I'm not so sure about that.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Three missed kicks as far as I've heard? Our backline is a Manu Tuilagi or a good coach away from being good currently.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Johann Muller, you'll be missed

What did you think about his captaincy tonight? I thought his argumentative manner around the referee did his team no favours. He's undoubtedly been a great signing though and will be hugely missed next season.

Leinster were terrible. Isaac Boss was ponderous at the break down. Ian Madigan looked lost and his replacement Jimmy Gopperth stood way too deep. It's easy to blame coaching but but it wasn't Matt O'Connor who blew a 5mt scrum, 5mt lineout, botched a passing move to Dave Kearney on the wing and missed three kicks at goal. The players must take responsibility for that below par performance.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

What did you think about his captaincy tonight? I thought his argumentative manner around the referee did his team no favours. He's undoubtedly been a great signing though and will be hugely missed next season.

Leinster were terrible. Isaac Boss was ponderous at the break down. Ian Madigan looked lost and his replacement Jimmy Gopperth stood way too deep. It's easy to blame coaching but but it wasn't Matt O'Connor who blew a 5mt scrum, 5mt lineout, botched a passing move to Dave Kearney on the wing and missed three kicks at goal. The players must take responsibility for that below par performance.

Its fair to say that but it's constant enough now, these players weren't doing the same for Ireland under Joe Schmidt...

 

[munstermuffin]

As a neutral I will give honest view and probably be hounded but well first off I thought Pearce did well in his first game especially as it was ****ly.
The red card wasn't malicious but decision was perfect per the laws. Kearney got yellow but technically it could've been a red and in my opinion should've been as it was deliberate stopping of try, high tackle and effectively the difference in game. Paddy did well to finish but ref should've called a pen try and allowed conversion under posts. 2nd yellow from refs view was correct but wasn't fair as Kirchner pushed Ruddock in to Ulster man so wrong man got yellow.
Ulster though had superb heart and well great to see Henderson continuing to go through them gears.
On opposite side Leinster are struggling. It strange 1 to analyse. They're playing bad but still winning. However the fact is they are on decline and Ulster will fancy chances in Dublin if they can get half the guys back. Leinster will be a different side too but something just seems wrong there.

Regards Irish team it's interesting how Schmidt views things. On current form Madigan is well behind Keatley and Jackson. He hasn't played well all year. Dave Kearney is another who will feel heat. Payne doesn't seem answer either at 13 and Cave impressed playing 12. Marty Moore going well but behind scrum Leinster seem in trouble

 

[munstermuffin]

Its fair to say that but it's constant enough now, these players weren't doing the same for Ireland under Joe Schmidt...

Actually Kearney had faults in Ireland, Jimmy G wasn't Irish and fact he's ahead of Madigan says it all for him. I don't blame MOC for his rapid regression as player more Madigan himself. Sexton left and I think Madigan thought pressure was off and eased a little but he's passing is gone back, his kicking has been poor this season even successful kicks aren't being hit as sweet as he wants and overall he's just regressed. Boss is more a defensive 9 so not a lot to say. Reddan is man you'd want for attacking

 

[Peat]

As a neutral I will give honest view and probably be hounded but well first off I thought Pearce did well in his first game especially as it was ****ly.
The red card wasn't malicious but decision was perfect per the laws. Kearney got yellow but technically it could've been a red and in my opinion should've been as it was deliberate stopping of try, high tackle and effectively the difference in game. Paddy did well to finish but ref should've called a pen try and allowed conversion under posts. 2nd yellow from refs view was correct but wasn't fair as Kirchner pushed Ruddock in to Ulster man so wrong man got yellow.

Not arguing with most of that, but if he missed a red on one big decision, and sent the wrong man into the bin on another, not sure how that's doing well.

What did you think about his captaincy tonight? I thought his argumentative manner around the referee did his team no favours. He's undoubtedly been a great signing though and will be hugely missed next season.

Leinster were terrible. Isaac Boss was ponderous at the break down. Ian Madigan looked lost and his replacement Jimmy Gopperth stood way too deep. It's easy to blame coaching but but it wasn't Matt O'Connor who blew a 5mt scrum, 5mt lineout, botched a passing move to Dave Kearney on the wing and missed three kicks at goal. The players must take responsibility for that below par performance.

I missed quite a bit of the game between eating and getting ready for work - but yeah, he wasn't great with him. I don't think Muller's fantastic with refs in general, where he shines is leading his own players. vdMerwe should replace him as a player but you could probably count on one hand the number of players who could replace him as a leader.


You're right that the players need to accept some responsibility and that O'Connor isn't the one dropping the ball - but confidence affects performance, and confidence is something where you'd expect the coach to make a difference. Something's changed, that's for sure. I wouldn't be exactly panicking if I was a Leinster supporter, and he was never going to be a second Schmidt, but Leinster aren't as invincible as they were.

Saying that Ulster have developed a horrible tendency to go mad in the opening ten minutes of big games - don't know whether I should blame Anscombe or not.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Actually Kearney had faults in Ireland, Jimmy G wasn't Irish and fact he's ahead of Madigan says it all for him. I don't blame MOC for his rapid regression as player more Madigan himself. Sexton left and I think Madigan thought pressure was off and eased a little but he's passing is gone back, his kicking has been poor this season even successful kicks aren't being hit as sweet as he wants and overall he's just regressed. Boss is more a defensive 9 so not a lot to say. Reddan is man you'd want for attacking

Madigan played better in his cameo for Ireland than he has all season with Leinster and Kearney made mistakes but he was still probably our best back after Sexton, he's also been Leinster's best for the mostpart though so he's not a good example.

 

[munstermuffin]

Madigan played better in his cameo for Ireland than he has all season with Leinster and Kearney made mistakes but he was still probably our best back after Sexton, he's also been Leinster's best for the mostpart though so he's not a good example.

Well first of all I'd disagree on Madigan. And second of all you think Dave Kearney was best back outside Sexton ????
Murray Trimble and D'Arcy were a lot more effective. Rob was better too. So I'd hugely disagree with that

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well first of all I'd disagree on Madigan. And second of all you think Dave Kearney was best back outside Sexton ????
Murray Trimble and D'Arcy were a lot more effective. Rob was better too. So I'd hugely disagree with that

Thought you meant Rob, Dave was also a lot more effective for Ireland as well. The team as a whole though has dropped in a year far more than you should expect after losing Sexton and Nacewa. The level of the back line has been below par all season, MO'C has a lot of work to do if we are to be a threat in Europe again this year. I'm convinced our only good performance this year, Franklins Gardens, was just a Joe Schmidt hangover!

 

[Amiga500]

Dodgey bit of tackling on Toner there from Herring and Court. Someone could walk here...

Toner tucks his back to put the ball on the ground and set up the ruck... and the referee sends off the tackler.

Its unreal.

 

[Amiga500]

Well this is completely mental. Feel for Ruddock got pushed by Kirchener.

Never a yellow card either.

Penalty and talking to Kirchener for being stupid and move on.

Rob Kearneys was the only possible yellow I seen - 'cos he, and he alone was in control of where he made the tackle on PJ. Even then, I'd just have given the penalty try* and moved on.


*incidentally, the referee's f**k up here cost Ulster a draw.

 

[Amiga500]

As a neutral I will give honest view and probably be hounded but well first off I thought Pearce did well in his first game especially as it was ****ly.

What do you mean first game? He was parachuted in from England especially for the game.

I''d f__king let him loose back over england at 35,000 ft... without a parachute.

The rules as they are are too specific, the referees now cannot apply, or seemingly don't possess, any common sense. You cannot legislate for everything in the rule book, so don't try!

Take 2 instances:

1. Courts red. Two men making the tackle, therefore it becomes virtually impossible for one individual to completely "control" the tackle.
2. Ruddocks yellow. Shoved into the jumper by Kirchener. How is Ruddock meant to control that?

Stupid, stupid, stupid refereeing. We're getting the game we deserve because we've now got pundits and coaches trawling over every decision from 5 angles and piling pressure on the referees to follow the letter of the law.


Nigel Owens once said "this is not soccer" - right now its starting to get hard to tell the difference at times.

 

[munstermuffin]

Never a yellow card either.

Penalty and talking to Kirchener for being stupid and move on.

Rob Kearneys was the only possible yellow I seen - 'cos he, and he alone was in control of where he made the tackle on PJ. Even then, I'd just have given the penalty try* and moved on.


*incidentally, the referee's f**k up here cost Ulster a draw.

Amiga the ref by law was 100% correct on 3 calls. Hardly a f up. Got clarification if the try is scored you can't go back and award pen try.
@Cmac I agree with all that but I don't think MOC is main factor in big dip of back line. Agree loosing best 10 and best loose runner in Europe were bigger factor

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

actually sad to see that this is laidlaw's final game for edinburgh ;(

 

[Groundhog]

Thank god this isn't in Murrayfield.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

yeah i find it better playing at a smaller stadium for edinburgh it doesn't look like a quiet game all the time

 

[munstermuffin]

What do you mean first game? He was parachuted in from England especially for the game.

I''d f__king let him loose back over england at 35,000 ft... without a parachute.

The rules as they are are too specific, the referees now cannot apply, or seemingly don't possess, any common sense. You cannot legislate for everything in the rule book, so don't try!

Take 2 instances:

1. Courts red. Two men making the tackle, therefore it becomes virtually impossible for one individual to completely "control" the tackle.
2. Ruddocks yellow. Shoved into the jumper by Kirchener. How is Ruddock meant to control that?

Stupid, stupid, stupid refereeing. We're getting the game we deserve because we've now got pundits and coaches trawling over every decision from 5 angles and piling pressure on the referees to follow the letter of the law.


Nigel Owens once said "this is not soccer" - right now its starting to get hard to tell the difference at times.

Meant first game in Rabo.

First of all even BBC guys said Courts was a red and it was so don't know why and if the 2 lads can't bring him down safe then that is there problem not the refs. They shouldn't do it if they can't.

Secondly got clarification Ruddock did deserve yellow. Because it was his own man it's still technically a team foul where he took hit. Again not refs fault Leinster took man out.

So you can moan about ref but is he was perfectly in his rights and did a fine job. And great to see such a young ref at that level. People ***** and moan about ref but he wasnt decisive factor

 

[Amiga500]

Amiga the ref by law was 100% correct on 3 calls.

If the referee is unable to realise that Toner is looking to get the ball to ground to (1) avoid the choke tackle and (2) set up quick ball for the scrum-half; then he has no business near a pitch.

Sorry - but being able to read the laws in a rule book does not make you capable of interpreting them in the context of the game correctly.


Same with the pundits. Saying "Oh, yeah, he has went beyond the horizontal there, has to be a red", without having the wit to recognise that the ball carrier is looking to get to ground quickly to recycle so has dived beyond the horizontal does not make you correct.