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2014 Junior World Rugby Trophy

What is the reason behind Canada's consistent underperformance in this tournament ?
 
What is the reason behind Canada's consistent underperformance in this tournament ?

They finished 2nd last year, losing only to Italy. They would have to be pretty disappointed in this result given that a number of their squad have either full caps, 7s caps or A team experience.
 
What is the reason behind Canada's consistent underperformance in this tournament ?

Yeah other than last year our performances have generally been pretty underwhelming at junior level events. I really can't explain it, possibly coaching issues, funding issues, one other theory I have is how many of our rugby athletes are multi sport guys, some of whom don't commit completely to rugby until their early 20's. Though all of these ideas are fairly conjectural.

I don't think the time of year helps either, the event is held coming right after the Canadian winter, where outdoor training isn't exactly easy in the vast majority of the country.
 
Multiple factors Toko_11, I will list a few of them with some detail

1. Player Selection/Funding: Rugby at the junior level in Canada follows a pay to play model, if you want to play you need to be able to pay, what that means is often times we don't get the best players out because they can't afford to pay or can't afford to travel for training etc...

2. Size of the country: Canada is an immensely large country (almost as large as all of continental Europe), many players cannot travel for training due to distance required. In Ontario for instance, The Ontario Blues are the provincial team in the CRC yet they have almost zero representation from Eastern Ontario due to the fact that Ottawa is a five hour drive from Toronto and players just cannot afford to travel that far to play rugby for free. The same goes for age grade rugby, when I played age grade I was asked to tryout for the provincial team; however, I would have needed to drive three hours in both directions for practices and would have had to pay large sums of money as a result, my parents both worked full time so that obviously wasn't going to happen. Now think of that on a national scale and you can see the problems we have in putting together decent age grade teams.

3. Coaching/Development: Coaching at the age grade level is generally weak in Canada. While coaching at the club level has improved significantly, most kids don't play club rugby, rather they play for their schools where coaching is usually not the best. Many schools still play an outdated brand of rugby and try and use big players to simply bash the ball up the field, we also have a problem and I think it's a knock off from hockey and american football, which is, favouring physical size over skill and footballing ability.

4. Competition from Other Sports: Rugby, while it is getting increasingly popular in Canada receives tremendous competition from other sports in the country. It is also a spring and summer sport here due to climate so the tournament timing is really poor for us, most kids in Canada play ice hockey or basketball in the winter and those two sports are in the midst of their playoff season right now. Particularly hockey players, who provide a substantial number of crossovers to rugby, the timing of this tournament is very poor. I played competitive ice hockey and rugby growing up but given the choice of which sport to pick I would play hockey every time as some of the biggest minor hockey tournaments in Canada are held at this time of year. I was just in Halifax this past week for business and SEDMHA which is a major minor hockey tournament that invites teams from All over Eastern Canada, USA and Europe was just going on and over 200 teams converged on Halifax for the tournament which is played at 18 different arenas in the city. We are also in the middle of Junior Hockey playoffs in Canada which is a huge event across the country and the NHL is in full swing. Rugby is far from peoples mind atm and it cannot compete with hockey at this time of year.
 
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Multiple factors Toko_11, I will list a few of them with some detail

1. Player Selection/Funding: Rugby at the junior level in Canada follows a pay to play model, if you want to play you need to be able to pay, what that means is often times we don't get the best players out because they can't afford to pay or can't afford to travel for training etc...

2. Size of the country: Canada is an immensely large country (almost as large as all of continental Europe), many players cannot travel for training due to distance required. In Ontario for instance, The Ontario Blues are the provincial team in the CRC yet they have almost zero representation from Eastern Ontario due to the fact that Ottawa is a five hour drive from Toronto and players just cannot afford to travel that far to play rugby for free. The same goes for age grade rugby, when I played age grade I was asked to tryout for the provincial team; however, I would have needed to drive three hours in both directions for practices and would have had to pay large sums of money as a result, my parents both worked full time so that obviously wasn't going to happen. Now think of that on a national scale and you can see the problems we have in putting together decent age grade teams.

3. Coaching/Development: Coaching at the age grade level is generally weak in Canada. While coaching at the club level has improved significantly, most kids don't play club rugby, rather they play for their schools where coaching is usually not the best. Many schools still play an outdated brand of rugby and try and use big players to simply bash the ball up the field, we also have a problem and I think it's a knock off from hockey and american football, which is, favouring physical size over skill and footballing ability.

4. Competition from Other Sports: Rugby, while it is getting increasingly popular in Canada receives tremendous competition from other sports in the country. It is also a spring and summer sport here due to climate so the tournament timing is really poor for us, most kids in Canada play ice hockey or basketball in the winter and those two sports are in the midst of their playoff season right now. Particularly hockey players, who provide a substantial number of crossovers to rugby, the timing of this tournament is very poor. I played competitive ice hockey and rugby growing up but given the choice of which sport to pick I would play hockey every time as some of the biggest minor hockey tournaments in Canada are held at this time of year. I was just in Halifax this past week for business and SEDMHA which is a major minor hockey tournament that invites teams from All over Eastern Canada, USA and Europe was just going on and over 200 teams converged on Halifax for the tournament which is played at 18 different arenas in the city. We are also in the middle of Junior Hockey playoffs in Canada which is a huge event across the country and the NHL is in full swing. Rugby is far from peoples mind atm and it cannot compete with hockey at this time of year.

Can pretty much stamp the US issues on this too. As someone in another forum made a point of, a lot of our best kids are in school right now, they can't afford (financially or academically) to skip out on 3 weeks of class for this tournament. Personally at my university professors would have had the right to flunk and drop me from classes since rugby isn't exactly a sport they say cool go miss some class it's ok (although most individual professors wouldn't take issue it's a procedural/departmental thing).

I also want to add, how spot on number 3 is based on my experience. In Massachusetts (high-school level) we get a lot of teams that crash the big guy all day, and if you got 2 big guys well forget about seeing ball out wide. Like Canadian_Rugger said, instead of teaching our players how to play with skill, pace, and technical knowledge, we just teach them crash ball and hands. There is a mindset that players aren't capable of learning the tactics and there is little mindset of practicing "game situation" skills, everything is drill oriented. Unfortunately, it doesn't really teach/help replicate game situations for a player. What you end up getting here is a hodgepodge of physical crap of just tackle the big guy 95 times and see the ball never get past the centers. Occasionally there will be a team "adventurous" enough to spin it out consistently and really play a skillful game. On the team I help I've tried to advocate for more time working on playing games that develop skills instead of wasting time on stupid drills that don't correlate to the game, and I've tried to advocate for "some" playing structure so it doesn't look like youth soccer. What we end up getting is mass clusters of players and overlap opportunities all over the place but no ability to take advantage. It's the "football' mentality, just physically obliterate the opponent or just keep it close in. The higher level college programs do a good job of playing sound rugby (Cals, BYUs, St. Mary's, Life) and they build some great players.
But my experience at the high school level all but shows the problem in creating quality age grade players in this country: it takes college/club programs to develop these guys basic skills and game sense, and by 18-19-20 it's pretty late to start. Or you get guys in college who played other sports previously and they gotta learn it all.
Another issue we get in our state is the want to affiliate with the varsity sport organization. They're already imitating the schedule so we only get 2-3 weeks to teach, practice before our first game...

Anyway, what Canadian_Rugger outlined is basically the North American problem. Few minor things different but on the whole they face similar issues. Neither country will become a competitive senior side to Tier 1's until the age-grade sides become better and more consistent.
 
Usausa,

I'm helping coach a high school team for the first time as well and find myself in the exact same battles. Is there any rugby below the high school level in Mass? In Colorado, we have something called Try Rugby that runs all the way down to U7s. There are different law variations for the various ages and it only ends up being 7s on a smaller pitch even at the U14 level, but it does get the kids running with the ball in hand and some experience with the basics. I've thought of starting a Try team through a local sporting organization and then using those kids a few years later to start a high school aged club. I'm having a blast helping coach the current team, but I'd really prefer to coach some more skills, focus more on games than drills and most importantly teach the kids how to think for themselves out there than micromanage them from the sidelines.
 
I think you should also consider another factor.

The opposition.

Most of the namibian players are in South African schools. Some of these guys attend schools like Grey College. Which is one of the top rugby schools in the country. The guys get coached by veteran Springboks and gain very valuable experience. Some guys are even good enough to make the Baby Boks squad.
 
Very interesting to see read about the hurdles rugby as a sport faces in the North Americas, thanks, guys.

In SA we have essentially two layers of junior rugby which I would call urban and rural though the rural boys who show promise very often go to boarding schools who have strong rugby traditions so funnily enough they almost have an advantage ITO coaching over boys in urban areas where you go to the closest school often where coaching is pretty lacklustre as was the case for me personally where the coach just wouldn't show up and we'd just play some shirts vs skins and self-reffing and then go home. Of course it helps that rugby is a very popular sport in SA so boys are probably more prone to be motivated to make an effort. It's basically the most popular sport among the minority white population (others are cricket and gholf which hardly competes being summer sports) across the entire country but also close enough to soccer ITO popularity in two other sections of the population namely the Eastern Cape 'black' and Cape 'colored' populations each of which outnumbers the 'white' population.
 
hope to have time to watch 2 days instead of merely final matches on 19th :)
 
I think you should also consider another factor.

The opposition.

Most of the namibian players are in South African schools. Some of these guys attend schools like Grey College. Which is one of the top rugby schools in the country. The guys get coached by veteran Springboks and gain very valuable experience. Some guys are even good enough to make the Baby Boks squad.

I would buy that, except for the fact that Namibia has been poor at this level. Since the IRB reorganized the JWC and JWRT by reducing the JWC from 16 to 12 teams, Namibia:

2013: finished dead last in the JWRT, with losses to Chile, Uruguay and Portugal.
2012: Did not qualify. Zimbabwe was the African qualifier.
2011: Did not qualify. Zimbabwe was the African qualifier.
2010: Did not qualify. Zimbabwe was the African qualifier.

This is actually their first win in the JWRT since 2009, when the JWRT was a completely different, and lower level of, competition.
 
I think Namibia is punching above it's weight because like Heineken said a big proportion of the boys get pro coaching in SA but a big proportion of Namib boys isn't a big number and the country only has so much potential and training is only gonna take you so far if you don't have the population and- extra- population density or infrastructure. Namibia has about 120 000 whites and even less coloreds (I'd jsut like to add the term is not offensive in SA) and lets face it that is the popultaion interested in rugby but spread across a desert country and outside the country because that is where the job opportunities are and you wouldn't stay in Namibia for pro rugby as it simply won't keep you and your family fed.
 
I think Namibia is punching above it's weight because like Heineken said a big proportion of the boys get pro coaching in SA but a big proportion of Namib boys isn't a big number and the country only has so much potential and training is only gonna take you so far if you don't have the population and- extra- population density or infrastructure. Namibia has about 120 000 whites and even less coloreds (I'd jsut like to add the term is not offensive in SA) and lets face it that is the popultaion interested in rugby but spread across a desert country and outside the country because that is where the job opportunities are and you wouldn't stay in Namibia for pro rugby as it simply won't keep you and your family fed.

But they haven't punched above their weight historically. Last year they came last, losing to Chile, Uruguay and Portugal. I'm sure playing at the big SA rugby schools helps them, but any way you slice it, losing to last year's JWRT wooden spoon is disappointing for Canada.
 
But they haven't punched above their weight historically. Last year they came last, losing to Chile, Uruguay and Portugal. I'm sure playing at the big SA rugby schools helps them, but any way you slice it, losing to last year's JWRT wooden spoon is disappointing for Canada.

I agree. I should probably have finished that sentence and probably I have the saying wrong but I agree and my meaning; they are punching above their weight and it's showing in their losses meaning they are in too high a competition for where they are realistically at.. sorry, English is not my first language.
 
I think you should also consider another factor.

The opposition.

Most of the namibian players are in South African schools. Some of these guys attend schools like Grey College. Which is one of the top rugby schools in the country. The guys get coached by veteran Springboks and gain very valuable experience. Some guys are even good enough to make the Baby Boks squad.

Hence why I said the coaching in Canada is poor at this level, did you even read what I posted??? :huh:
 
I agree. I should probably have finished that sentence and probably I have the saying wrong but I agree and my meaning; they are punching above their weight and it's showing in their losses meaning they are in too high a competition for where they are realistically at.. sorry, English is not my first language.

Ah, ok. No worries.
 
Usausa,

I'm helping coach a high school team for the first time as well and find myself in the exact same battles. Is there any rugby below the high school level in Mass? In Colorado, we have something called Try Rugby that runs all the way down to U7s. There are different law variations for the various ages and it only ends up being 7s on a smaller pitch even at the U14 level, but it does get the kids running with the ball in hand and some experience with the basics. I've thought of starting a Try team through a local sporting organization and then using those kids a few years later to start a high school aged club. I'm having a blast helping coach the current team, but I'd really prefer to coach some more skills, focus more on games than drills and most importantly teach the kids how to think for themselves out there than micromanage them from the sidelines.

MYRO (the SBO for the state at youth level) is doing a really good job at trying to promote and encourage the "Rookie Rugby" program, so it is slowly starting to become more commonplace. They wanted to come to our town, I gave our head coach the necessary contacts but have heard nothing since. If the state goes to inner city kids and all over and is successful, who's to blame for us not getting on it?.....
As I'm sure you know, it's only as strong as the volunteers. Now I respect all the people volunteering their time no doubt, but in the same aspect how good of a service are we if we just consistently give the ball the big all the time and solely rely on it. There are some clubs that run youth levels all the way down but few, most of the youth initiative is through our state organization. It helps to get kids interested and hopefully build a base of athletes that consider playing rugby. We get a lot of senior football players (the good football players never played before because they were discouraged to by the football coach if you can believe it) and they are not only fascinated but love the game! A lot of them especially enjoy the fact that they can play 35mins and not really have to deal/interact with coaches, they get to take responsibility for their play and get to work it out amongst themselves, a huge tool for life!

http://www.myrugby.org/site/ClientSite/article/72094
I'd say this club has the best offering of youth programs: http://www.bulldogrugby.com/

norcal, I have the same coaching philosophy as you. Rugby is a continuous game where players need to be able to think and take responsibility on their own, and it has to be a culture cultivated in practice. At the high school level, I think too many coaches don't give the kids enough credit, they underestimate their abilities to understand, comprehend, problem solve, etc. Currently my main issue (aside from now being limited to only Fridays due to work commitments) is disagreeing on philosophy, how to teach, play game, etc. We have 5 coaches for a team of 20 boys, although we never usually get all 5 and 20 at once. And all 5 of us have different techniques or ways of teaching/explaining things so it's becomes a messy practice, wasting time. We need to do a better job at getting all of us on the same page so that we can support the head coach. I've been involved with senior club stuff for the past couple of years so I have a unique look on different things like rucking technique than some of the other guys who are more old school kind of just get low and smash (which in my experience/opinion isn't always the most effective). Our head coach is a certified ref so he adds a unique take in that he knows the laws inside out as they're written although our interpretations are different.


For our international readers, just to put in perspective, the coaching courses here that our educating new coaches like myself in comparison to those abroad? Here's a bit from someone on a facebook group I'm in. One could say this could account for the quality disparity.

...the coaching courses are a waste of money, the level 2 or 300 as itis now, was a joke compared to the IRB same course. I took the IRB Level 300 course in the UK when I was there for the contract I did, it was four intense weekends. I come back to the US, take the same course which is one Saturday???? Needless to say the US course was rubbish compared to the one run by the RFU in England. I did however get a manual from both!

And another...
The $150 was to register the club. Add an additional $60 for ref and coach combined. The level 200 was a waste of time and money. $90 for the course....$200 for hotel...$70 for gas and a total of 8 hours driving. I've been involved in rugby for 40 years now as coach, ref, player here and in Europe. No check of the audience for level 200 to guage the experience level. I launched a 2 page critique to USA Rugby. Oh yea...the manual they promised never showed up but the instructors failed to let us know. I asked at the end and said it didn't show at their hotel. Come on guys, have the courtesy of telling us that it didn't arrive and how you were resolving it!

And another...

I didn't CIPP as a coach this year, as I damned if I'm getting re-certified & paying more monies. I reached Level 3 IRB & old Level 3 here, & retook the Level 2 course after they revamped it. But, no more. It is an absolute rip off.


The Level 200 I took was nothing in terms of rocket science, basically if you've ever played rugby it's an easy pass here. The real "value" came from interacting with other coaches during down times and talking techniques, tactics, how to improve our teams. USA Rugby does a poor job offering a real good coach education based on my experience. We have no idea where any of our money goes (probably 90% of it to senior side) when we should be investing in coach education and youth development.

*EDIT I don't mean to drag this so off topic but people wonder why our age grade results are so varied and up and down, this is a huge part of it. The one time we win it the tournament's held in June when everyone in the States is out of school and available!
 
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From the FIRA forums, great find, good on the Georgian RU for taking the initiative to film and upload their match vs. Tonga!

1st half
 
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