[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[Bada-Bing!]

Will Croft be ready for this tour? I know he damaged his ACL in September, which usually means 9 months out. I still see Lancaster choosing 3 flankers (Robshaw, Wood, Croft) in his WC squad, with Billy V and Morgan covering 8. That means Wood will be back up 7 and no place for Kvesic.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Back for Tigers as soon as two weeks away, apparently.
I wouldn't take him, but Lancaster probably will.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Will Croft be ready for this tour? I know he damaged his ACL in September, which usually means 9 months out. I still see Lancaster choosing 3 flankers (Robshaw, Wood, Croft) in his WC squad, with Billy V and Morgan covering 8. That means Wood will be back up 7 and no place for Kvesic.

I can't see croft fitting into this team. Both flankers are real work horses in the ruck area and the the tackle area and croft plays a very loose game. I think his England days are done and that a different type of back row is what Lancaster will want going forward.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I can't see croft fitting into this team. Both flankers are real work horses in the ruck area and the the tackle area and croft plays a very loose game. I think his England days are done and that a different type of back row is what Lancaster will want going forward.

I agree Wood and Robshaw are first choice now, especially as Wood edges Croft with his breakdown work, but I think you underestimate the big edge a fit Tom Croft gives in terms of experience. He is one of the few to have both World Cup and Lions experience. As long as he fully recovers from the ACL, and by that I mean his pace as a back row forward, then I think he'll be difficult to ignore; not to mention his line out ability. He'd be useful as an impact sub, once the game becomes more broken up.

Just watching Stuart Barnes interview with Lancaster on sky sports, it is clear SL is very aware of the squad's lack of World Cup experience, which is vital if England want to be serious contenders. If it boils down to Kvesic v Tom Croft in 2015, then I think SL plumps for Croft.

 

[Peat]

I can't see croft fitting into this team. Both flankers are real work horses in the ruck area and the the tackle area and croft plays a very loose game. I think his England days are done and that a different type of back row is what Lancaster will want going forward.

You think completely, totally wrong.

Think back to last year's Six Nations. The moment Tom Croft was conceivably fit again for international rugby - probably before he actually was - Lancaster brought him straight back into the squad. I don't know how much feedback Rowntree and Farrell had into Lions selection, but I strongly doubt they were mutes; Croft went and was well involved, Robshaw and Wood didn't.

When Croft is available English coaches pick him. It appears to be that simple. I see no reason to think that's changed in this latest injury layoff.

Personally I'd think this team would be better with Croft starting ahead of Wood. We have more than enough workhorses in the team - and its not like Croft can't work - but we are short of match-breaking attributes in the pack. Swapping Wood for Croft simply gives a better balance in that respect. Who knows, it might be what Lancaster does - after all, he's not had a chance to pick between all three being properly fit yet.

 

[j'nuh]

Parling fits the same criteria (Lions, coach favourite), but there's no way I'd drop any of our locks at this point, even Attwood. Parling will have to wait for a chance for me.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to Croft. We shouldn't forget that Croft kicks ass in the lineout. Him and Lawes, and we won't miss Parling one bit.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/video/0,25862,15715_9223519,00.html

In case peeps missed the SL interview. The only thing is you need to stomach Stuart Barnes.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

You think completely, totally wrong.

Think back to last year's Six Nations. The moment Tom Croft was conceivably fit again for international rugby - probably before he actually was - Lancaster brought him straight back into the squad. I don't know how much feedback Rowntree and Farrell had into Lions selection, but I strongly doubt they were mutes; Croft went and was well involved, Robshaw and Wood didn't.

After reading that I agree, youve changed my mind (which is rare on this forum).

And reading what others say maybe we need him and parling more than we think.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I think adding Croft gives us another attacking weapon. Our defensive system would actually really accomidate a fast back row player getting off the line out wide to cut off the ball getting to the wings. What England need is more attacking threat in my opinion and Croft is as fast as a winger and big as a lock. His lineout work is better than woods and he gives you a great outball to the front of the lineout. He will have too up the tackle count but with his pace he can get in the 10's face and link up the backs. Have Wood on the bench so he can be like for like with Robshaw or if we take off Croft we can revert to our current system of hitting rucks and slowing down the ball.

 

[Patchey]

Just said on BT Sport that Wade is unlikely to play again this season.
Not sure how far in to the off season his injury will go (if at all) - If he's fit, even with no game time at Wasps, I'd still have him in the squad. Wouldn't have him in the tests, but with the BaaBaas and the Crusaders games he can still get time in a White shirt.

How much game time has he managed this season? Seems like he's been injured for most of it!

 

[Peat]

After reading that I agree, youve changed my mind (which is rare on this forum).

And reading what others say maybe we need him and parling more than we think.

We could certainly use both of them in the WC squad, even if events have outrun them (possibly) on the 23. They've certainly outrun Parling, Lawes has been a revelation this season - but you can never have too many quality experienced back-ups. Besides, working on the principle that you're always missing 25pc of your squad, likelihood is 1 of our 4 best locks will be injured; good chance Parling will be in the 23 most matches going forwards or injured himself. Likewise, no guarantee that both Robshaw and Wood will be around to force a hard choice when Croft returns.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

How much game time has he managed this season? Seems like he's been injured for most of it!

8, apparently.
To be honest I'm surprised it's that many!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'd be interested to see Croft play as an impact sub. His speed could be useful in cutting apart defences at the end of the game when they are tired.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Does anyone know the extent of the Nowell injury ?It seems everytime a young and upcoming winger seems to be getting a chance for us we get the worst of luck and they end up injured
Anyway the game vs the barbarians is going to be horrible after seeing the squad they have put together and that we haven't got everyone available for selection.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not seen any reports of Nowell's injury, so hopefully just a knock.


The Barbarians game certainly will be interesting....

If we presume a Sarries/Saints final, and that anyone from the first test 23 won't/can't be used then going through the combined EPS/Saxons squads, and filling in any gaps with players Lancaster is likely to pick would leave something like:


1. Matt Mullan
2. Rob Webber (injured? Dave Ward)
3. Henry Thomas (Cole back for first test? If not, Kyle Sinckler)
4. Slater
5. Parling (injured? Stooke)
6. Johnson
7. Kvesic
8. Ewers
9. Robson
10. Slade
11. Sharples
12. Eastmond
13. Daly
14. Watson
15. Tait

16. Ward (A.N.Other)
17. Yann Thomas (only loosehead in the Saxons/EPS that's available, would hope they'd call up someone else)
18. Sinckler (Brookes, though hope they'll call up JCW)
19. Stooke/Parling/A.N.Other
20. Croft
21. Simpson
22. Cipriani
23. Miller


Not a bad side, but due to the timing of the game and the amount of new players involved we'd be as unprepared as the BaaBaas, and considering man for man their side is vastly more experienced I could easily see us losing.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The England squad (minus those in the premiership final) is flying out on the 27th - several days before the BaBaas game.

That would almost certainly leave the above team looking like this:

1.
2.
3.
4. Slater
5.
6.
7.
8. Ewers
9. Robson
10. Slade
11. Sharples
12.
13. Daly
14.
15. Tait

16. Ward (A.N.Other)
17. Yann Thomas (only loosehead in the Saxons/EPS that's available, would hope they'd call up someone else)
18. Sinckler (Brookes, though hope they'll call up JCW)
19. Stooke
20. Croft
21. Simpson
22. Cipriani
23. Miller

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ouch!

Our prop depth isn't nearly deep enough to cover missing three front rows worth.
I'm most acquainted with Sale, so I've put Harrison in there because I'm really struggling to think of anyone else (though I do really rate him).
Also, thinking about it, wasn't Slater named in the EPS?

1. Ross Harrison?
2. Ward
3. Sinckler
4. Kitchener
5. Stooke
6. Croft
7. Haskell
8. Ewers
9. D.Robson
10. Slade
11. Sharples
12. Hill
13. Daly
14. Rokoduguni
15. Tait

16. Cowan-Dickie
17. Yann Thomas
18. Nathan Catt
19. G.Robson
20. Wallace
21. Simpson
22. Cipriani
23. Miller


Pack replacements are poor. Whole side is very thrown together, no partnerships anywhere - oh dear! But also, if the whole squad flies out on the 27th then, as it's an extended EPS, that could see players like Daly, Cipriani, Stooke, Croft, Cowan-Dickie missing as well, depending on what squad Lancaster names and whether he's willing to leave a few of the fringe players behind to get some game time before flying down with the Prem Final players, to meet up later.

 

[B10]

I'm guessing whoever is responsible for the dates on this tour is no longer employed by the RFU?

Ridiculous and such a shame that the Barbarians have their best squad in years and we are going to have to throw together a totally cobbled together side with next to no international experience at all. Would of liked to have played a similar side to which will start the 1st test v NZ as it would be good prep for them with such a good Baa Baas squad.

 

[Peat]

To get a better handle on how this would look -

In 2012, we sent 42 players to SA. 23 forwards and 19 backs. It seems unlikely we'll send less to NZ.

A positional breakdown gives us

3 looseheads, 3 tightheads, 4 hookers, 6 locks, 5 flankers, 2 8s
3 SHs, 3 FHs, 5/6 centres (3 ICs, 2/3 OCs) 4/5 wingers, 3 FBS - mild confusion as to whether George Lowe toured more as winger or centre.

The proportions could change - less locks, more props would not surprise anyone - but if we assume these numbers that means, with everyone fit, our squad looks something like this:

Corbs, Marler, Mako (Mullan)
Cole, Wilson, Thomas (Wilson)
Hartley, Youngs, Webber, George (Ward)
Launchbury, Lawes, Parling, Attwood, Slater, Kitchener (Kruis, Stooke)
Robshaw, Wood, Croft, Johnson, Kvesic, Morgan, Billy (Clark; Dickinson)
Care, Dickson, Youngs (Simpson)
Farrell, Ford, Burns (Myler)
Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Barritt, Tuilagi, Burrell (Hill, Joseph)
Wade, Yarde, May, Nowell, Ashton (Rokodugni)
Brown, Foden, Goode (Miller/Tait)

But no injuries, well that's balls, so I've included the next men in line in brackets

So... a worst case team maybe looks like this, assuming a Sarries/Saints final

1. Catt 2. Ward 3. Collier 4. Matthews 5. Myall 6. Fearns 7. Wallace 8. Ewers; 9. Robson 10. Cipriani 11. Varndell 12. JTH 13. Daly 14. Sharples 15. Miller/Tait; 16. LCD/Yeandle/Buchanan 17. Wood 18. JCW 19. Robson 20. Haskell 21. Lewis 22. Slade 23. Watson

That's not a bad team tbh, if a little raw up front, but no cohesion and really fit for A team duty. Sending them against a full bore Baabaas side, well...

Reality is we'll probably even see some guys from the level of depth below that tbh, particularly if one of Leicester or Bath reach the final, which, after a quick think, means these guys...

Harrison, Buchanan/Yeandle/Taylor, Sinckler, Barrow, Kennedy, Garvey, Seymour, Gaskell/Jones, K. Dickson, Carlisle, Thompstone, Allen, Hopper, Smith, Pennell

In fairness, not too many players there I'd be worried about in a strong team.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm guessing whoever is responsible for the dates on this tour is no longer employed by the RFU?

Ridiculous and such a shame that the Barbarians have their best squad in years and we are going to have to throw together a totally cobbled together side with next to no international experience at all. Would of liked to have played a similar side to which will start the 1st test v NZ as it would be good prep for them with such a good Baa Baas squad.

New Zealand moved the dates of the tour forward. Not the RFU.