[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[Maverick1987]

Yeh he's a bit of a work horse and appears although I don't have the stats that he gets through quite a few tackles too . Doesn't do the extravagant stuff but does do the ground work that allows others like croft to stand on the wing

 

[TheSaffycen]

I defiantly agree with that he doesn't make the yards in fact I stated he doesn't. I just saying why he is preferred to waldrom.

It is why Cockerill is getting this player from Rotherham that is a big ball carrying tank (according to there supporters).

Yeah I was just making the point to why he was in the team. I was going to ask about number 8 because you are losing waldrom and it's a big position to not have an out and out stand by. I look at Slater and think would he be a good 8 ? I have seen him at 6 and seemed he was a decent carrier, all he would need too improve on is his speed and maybe losing some of the weight to make him fitter ? I'm not too sure just thinking.

 

[j'nuh]

I would argue that a big boshing 8 is a little outdated now anyway. The best 8s need as a pre-requisite to get through almost as much work as a flanker. Faletau, Parisse, Picamoles, Read, Heaslip etc. - what all links them when they are in form is that they are decent carriers, but they also get through a ton of work. I've noticed a shift in the way Morgan plays in that he takes on more work. He is only just behind Kvesic for the number of tackles he makes a game for Gloucester, for example. This, for me, is what is currently holding Vunipola back. He's a ruthless carrier, truly one of the best in the game. Worth a place in the England team for that alone. But he won't be one of the world's best 8s until he does more outside of the carry.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Slater has played 8 couple of times last season.

I think the Rotherham 8 is Peace the supporters rate him more than Dickerson at Saints.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Pearce is rated very highly from what I can make out - 125kg-ish too, isn't he?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yep 6ft 4, 120kg.

Former League player as well, and has transited well to number 8 played his first game in Feb last year.

 

[TheSaffycen]

These are 2010 premiership stats Comparison of crane and Joubert
Who made a lot of tackles and carriers but he made on average of 2.9 meters a carry and joubert 5.5 which is nearly double. I know Joubert a couple of years ago was a very good number 8 but Crane is a much bigger guy and should at least match him for carrying stats. Joubert also won more turnovers and more clean breaks- Crane beats him on almost every over stat.
20 Matches 23
123 Tackles 119
10 Missed Tackles 15
282 Carries 125
825 Metres 692
99 Passes 72
4 Clean Breaks 12
18 Offloads 9
7 Turnovers won 14
21 Defenders Beaten 18

I would argue that a big boshing 8 is a little outdated now anyway. The best 8s need as a pre-requisite to get through almost as much work as a flanker.

With the whole thing you have to look at the teams who use them players. Faletau plays in a team of backs who are bigger than 8's !!!! They don't need him for carrying. Picamoles is in the top3 best 8's in the world and is mainly there for carrying. Heaslip is normally playing with O'Brien and Ferris so don't need to carry. In each team they have someone in the back row who is the big carrier. Apart from the All-Blacks (messam maybe) because they play without the ball for long periods so he plays out wide normally and isn't there for bashing but for finishing off the move or adding the last set of hands before the line. Last time we went out without a big carrier we lost 30-3

 

[j'nuh]

Carrying stats for 8s are misleading at the best of times. For example, take Morgan. Morgan is one of a small number of 8s that regularly drops back into the back three game. (I think all 8s with a decent amount of pace should do this btw.) But doing this once or twice a game will inflate his meters per carry way past the average 8. Also, Morgan has a knack of carrying in the back line. Morgan is one of the more versatile 8s, who plays in both tight and loose.

So it needs context - do Crane and Joubert make the same kinds of carries? Is one more prone to carrying from deep, or in the back line, compared to the other?

I think it's very, very notable that Crane has made more than double the carries that Joubert has. It tells me that Crane carries more often in the tight, for minimal meters. Crane may be more prone to the pick-and-carry game, for example. Important carries, but only makes half a meter at a time. Joubert's clean breaks stat tells me that he's more likely to carry into space and hence is likelier to make more meters per carry.

Besides, Crane needs to play tighter, as the Tigers have a lot of forwards that like to carry in the loose eg Youngs, Croft, Kitchener.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ford, Eastmond, Devoto, Rokoduguni and Watson all put in shifts that I think Lancaster will have taken note of.
Rokoduguni in particular I think is right up Lancaster's street.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I completely forgot Rokoduguni was EQ, he def needs some game time.

 

[TheSaffycen]

That is a very fair point it's just that someone said that a couple of years ago Crane use too make the big carries and make meters, it's just not true. I just don't rate him, it's just down too opinion. I know that Croft and Kitchener are the sort of guys you want out wide to score tries. I'm just saying that in the back row you want a guy who makes the big carries through the middle. The stats tell me that in a team that has Croft in it he should be making more tackles and turning over the ball more which he don't do, Joubert played in a team that has Burger and Brown in it so he doesn't have to make as many tackles but only makes 4 less ( I know he played more but like 3 games). So my point is that he doesn't make big carries, doesn't make many more tackles than an 8 who is more of a running 8 and makes less turnovers, and for these reasons I just don't rate him.

 

[goodNumber10]

I would argue that a big boshing 8 is a little outdated now anyway. The best 8s need as a pre-requisite to get through almost as much work as a flanker. Faletau, Parisse, Picamoles, Read, Heaslip etc. - what all links them when they are in form is that they are decent carriers, but they also get through a ton of work. I've noticed a shift in the way Morgan plays in that he takes on more work. He is only just behind Kvesic for the number of tackles he makes a game for Gloucester, for example. This, for me, is what is currently holding Vunipola back. He's a ruthless carrier, truly one of the best in the game. Worth a place in the England team for that alone. But he won't be one of the world's best 8s until he does more outside of the carry.

agreed, i've just written a blog post about how Read is one of New Zealands main counter attack weapons - he literally sits in the back three in defence.

 

[McTallshort]

Dont most 8s do that anyway? KIck returns after kick offs are almost always taken by an 8

 

[TheSaffycen]

Yeah they do if you watch England Vs Wales- Brown and Morgan receive most kicks down field, it just gives you the option to run it hard back or give it too your fullback. A great example at 1 minute mark was Morgan and Foden combining

 

[goodNumber10]

Dont most 8s do that anyway? KIck returns after kick offs are almost always taken by an 8

yes, of course. But he does it in broken play as well... they play quite often with 4 across the back, defend with 12, a 9 behind and Read drops deep.

In attack he sits outside the 13, doesn't really do the hard yards, but he's there as a cleaner, ball carrier in the wide channels - it's like they split their pack and he stays one side, and McCaw the other and they just wait till the ball comes their way.

That's obviously over simplifying it, as they obviously do everything else needed of them but Read is there 60/70% of the time on an oppositons kick. I've done a little video to go with it... i'll upload it a bit later.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I know it's hard to judge form and injuries now but who do you think might be surprise inclusions into the squad ?
I think- Cowan Dickie, Ward, Sinkler, Dickinson will be in the forwards even if they don't play in the test they will be around the squad. In the backs depending if you think they're surprises as they're in and around the squad but Rokoduguni, Watson, Daly

 

[ratsapprentice]

Kvesic doing some great link work in the Glos vs Falcons highlights.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

If England are to get the best out of Kvesic at the breakdown I think he should be paired with a blindside who will make more tackles than he does and set Kvesic up to compete for ball; Maybe I'm thinking too much about numbers on backs but it seems to me you get the best out of him if he's not the player making the most tackles each and every game, as seems to be the case at Gloucester.

 

[McTallshort]

If England are to get the best out of Kvesic at the breakdown I think he should be paired with a blindside who will make more tackles than he does and set Kvesic up to compete for ball; Maybe I'm thinking too much about numbers on backs but it seems to me you get the best out of him if he's not the player making the most tackles each and every game, as seems to be the case at Gloucester.

Someone like......Robshaw? There I said it

 

[Maverick1987]

The layout of the back row for me is really good . We should probably get Kev on the pitch for a few caps just incase of injury but that's not crucial really . Our back row is similar to the SA back row really . Wood, Robbo and Billy/Morgan is fine for me . Robshaw is 28 so Kev is probably the natural successor anyway