[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 2: Argentina v South Africa (26/08/2017)

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Serfontain has not shown the form of the French series so far in this tournament. He needs to up his game to keep RJvR out I'd think. Solid, but unspectacular.

 

[Every Time Ref]

The Argentinian gameplay can generally be described as 'organised chaos'

"Organised" is generous.

Argentina have gone backwards massively in the last couple of years, it's a real shame. Not allowing non-Jaguares players to play for the national team was a big mistake IMO

 

[Dark Horse]

They'll have to relax that rule. It's as simple as that. I hope they'll have the balls to pull back on it.

 

[Every Time Ref]

On another note, Jantjies hasn't been especially good, considering he's had an armchair ride

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

"Organised" is generous.

agreed!

Serfontain has not shown the form of the French series so far in this tournament. He needs to up his game to keep RJvR out I'd think.

I would LOVE to see them together, RJvR as inside and Serfontain as outside centre. They would complement each other beautifully.

 

[Dark Horse]

It's an astonishing fall from grace for a country that is a two time semi finalist in the RWC and has a rich rugby tradition. Something must be done and quick.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Really weird game. The score line does not tell the story but a BP win and 15+ taking us ahead of Ireland into #3 on the world rankings and at #1 on the RC log (well at least for this week still).. I'll take it after 2016 but though its our first win away from home in a good while there is more than enough to keep my expectation about our Australasian tour minimal.

Argentina just need to cut out the small errors. Just. It feels like it should be simple doesn't it. A few critical turn overs, poor decision making/discipline (more often than other tier 1 nations it feels like) and handling at times letting both teams down but more so Argentina. If Hernandez had just passed rather than kicked after the intercept and break and if Argentina had held on and scored rather than Kolisi running in on the other side that's 21 points right there. Small margins adding up.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

On another note, Jantjies hasn't been especially good, considering he's had an armchair ride

Cleared well, kicked for goal fine, scored one with a nice finish, created another with a handy chip and contributed to a third with a nice looping pass. His best game as a Bok for me, although that isn't saying much as he has not replicated his best Lion form. At least he showed he could play with someone who wasn't a Lion at scrum half.

South Africa back up to third by leap overtaking Ireland. What strikes me about their performances is they are not relying on individual magic, it's just been solid team performances and a whole lot of points scored.

Argentina have a lot of soul searching to do. On this performance I'd actually fancy Italy against them November for a battle of the worst Tier 1s.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Paige lifted us big time. He isn't our best but Hougaard taking three sidewards steps EVERY SINGLE TIME before passing means Jantjies has that much less time on the ball. Hougaard was solid on defense as usual but its his core game that tells me he is better left as utility cover on the bench. First kick in general play was Hougaard kicking posession away for 1/2 a meter. If anything Argentina had the go forward on that "up and under". Then there was the intercept pass he forced which should have cost us 7 if Hernandez didn't do us a huge favor to kick that ball dead with two men there and no defense. Hougaard also cost us a ton of possession by forcing passes. I counted at least three he launched at guys who spilled them rightfully not expecting to get the ball. But mainly its the slow service from the base that just irritates me.

Rhules still not impressing me. At least I counted two good tackles in there this time though there was still some backing off on defense from him. If anything if there is a forward there he should effect the tackle to allow the forward to compete at the ruck. I don't expect miracles from him on attack but we've grown to learn Bok wingers have to add value ang get themselves into the game. Lleyds and Combrinck IMO would be better suited at test level.

Beast has taken the good form from last week and actually had a better game despite this one being more contested than in PE. I will probably have to eat my words. Done. Tastes good. Here's hoping he can keep it up. He wouldn't be the first aging Bok I've called passed it to make a legit come back. Habana for one springs to mind. Less recently Du Randt and Montgomery. He can join illustrious company if he can continue to regain lost form and make such a positive impact.

 

[Ospervat]

Now it's east vs west.
Based on that performance compared to the tempo and skills of the NZ/Oz game earlier I don't see either of these sides getting a win home or away.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Now it's east vs west.
Based on that performance compared to the tempo and skills of the NZ/Oz game earlier I don't see either of these sides getting a win home or away.

I reckon we'll fancy ourselves vs Aus. Even away from home unless they manage to find a way to negate our expected superiority at the set piece and ruck. I just don't rate the Aussie pack at all but then again I do have a habit of putting to much on that and Aus teams have almost always had to play with a beaten pack.

 

[Brigantine]

How the hell do you get 4 players sent off in one game?

 

[marianodan]

Don't worry guys, tomorrow we will probably read in the headlines "Hourcade offered 4 year contract extension" UAR: "we don't care about results, we believe in long term projects."

And Lavanini will just say "I'm sorry" and will probably be back for the last games at home.

 

[galumay]

Interesting, after watching the games so far in the Rugby Championship I am now of the opinion that neither the Boks nor Pumas are likely to beat NZ at home or away, and I cant see either of the beating the Wobblies at home, maybe SA can win against them in SA?

I guess we will get a clearer picture after the next round, but form mine AB's as usual a class above everyone else, Wobblies most improved, SA improved, Pumas struggling.

 

[Horacito]

Well, we're two years far from WC, time to start contemplating that fact.

Hernández today. Jesus.

The next person to tell me we need Lavanini over Petti because of scrum, weight and stuff.

Landajo works well as a replacement, not as a starter.

Lezana is a player who can do two things, and holding to the ball is not one of 'em.

Even Matera looked bad today, and he's our guy.

You can see Hourcade desperatingly trying to get better, and failing. Six changes this week, undo some of them, trying to put Kremer in as a 3rd rower (wow, wow, wow, must be a TRF lurker)

Anyway, let's crash: we need it.

Pascal Gauziere is dreadful, but only to match our performance.

 

[Brigantine]

All this wishing for failure from Argentina is getting tiring...

I haven't seen the game (someone have a link?), but Argentina have a big reputation for being inconsistent - even when they're on a terrible streak like this they can have a good day and give the All Blacks a fright.

Whatever mental preparation they do before the games where they should be aiming to win... seems like it's backfiring.

 

[mdaclarke]

I think the Boks will beat the Aussies home and away, but not sure about the All Blacks. Although it looked scrappy, the Boks put a lot of points on the Pumas and you can only beat whats in front of you. It's hard to have a flowing game against the Pumas in Salta as the Pumas are a very aggressive and physical team which you need to grind down.

 

[SomeOke]

Pretty poor performance from us, helped along by an even worse performance by the Argies, just too many knock-ons and ill-discipline from them.

On the plus side, our pack is coming together nicely.
On the downside, our backline looks woeful from structured play, and I'm beginning to think we need a reshuffle (not Jantjies he's impressed me mostly).
On the plus side Siya MF Kolisi.
On the downside Hougard .

 

[galumay]

I think the Boks will beat the Aussies home and away, but not sure about the All Blacks.

I would have thought that before the 2 Bledisloe games. Given that the Wobblies fixed their defence in the 2nd game, showed plenty of attacking skill in both, and only lost to the AB's, at home, in Dunedin,because they missed 4(?) kicks for goal - I cant see the current Boks team beating them in Aus and it will be a big ask even in SA.

I guess we cant read too much into it so far, we will get a far clearer picture after the next round.

 

[unrated]

Most of you are very over critical of the Springboks. I mean they scored 40 points against Argentina in Argentina and in doing so got a bonus point. Thats pretty good IMO.
Yes there was mistakes but a sign of a good team is if you can win even on a bad day.
Aussies should not think that because they ran the All blacks close that they are now suddenly contenders. We wont know until Australia plays South Africa home and away.
Personally i think the All Blacks is suffering from a dip in form and this has made the Wallabies seem better than they are.
I think we will easily beat Australia at home and then it will be a tight game in Australia.
Heck for all we know Argentina is also playing very well and just came second to a better South Africa. They might give the wallabies a run for their money. I predict for Argentina to win Australia in ARG especially considering the fact that they will be desperate for a home win.

Hougaard did not immediately distribute the ball when he got to the rucks in this game. Instead he picked it up and tried to run it a bit pulling in multiple defenders near the rucks before passing, opening up some team mates in the process. Yes he made a few mistakes but man he was not nearly as bad as people are claiming. Id start him again in our next match. We South Africans are too quick to cast players away for the pettiest of things (Faf de Klerk, Francois Steyn, Sarel Pretorius ,Reinach ,Bismarck du Plessis, Beast ,Coenie Oosthuizen, Willie le Roux) All these guys are quality players who gets exiled and vilified by their own national fans.

 

[galumay]

Most of you are very over critical of the Springboks.

I guess its natural, as a Bok fan you will see their form as good, and as an Aussie I am going to see the Wallabies form as good. We will both probably prefer to think the other's side is weaker! The AB's fans have the luxury of just knowing they are still the best!

I dont think there is any drop in the AB's form, they played 50 minutes of flawless attacking rubgy in the first game, they were still good enough to find the extra bit to overcome a Wallabies side that played their best form of 10 years.

The Boks and Pumas just looked at a slightly lower skill level and intensity compared to how the AB's have played all year and below Australia in the last 110 minutes!

As I said earlier, its really hard to read too much into any of it at this stage, I am sure the Boks will bring their A game for the Wallabies and the Pumas will see the Wallabies as their only chance of a win now so it wont be easy and the Wallabies will have to keep improving. You are right though, we simply wont know until the next round of games when the picture should start to become a bit clearer. At least there promises to be some cracking rugby for us to watch - and discuss afterwards!

 

[TRF_heineken]

First time I've seen South Africa's away strip and must admit I don't like it.

Nobody likes it. And luckily it's not our away strip (which is white with green), this was a comemorative jersey to celebrate 25 years of rugby unity (which is BS)

Since when double yellow is read? If it was that bad he should award try penalty. Despite that we are making mistakes and losing the game on our own. Rugby has became a very wierd sport.

That has always been the law... Just ask Bismarck Du Plessis...

On another note, Jantjies hasn't been especially good, considering he's had an armchair ride

Yeah, again he failed to get that pass mark from me.


As for the game. I don't get the Argentine gameplan. I said it last week, and they did it again. Playing negatively and hope to attack on a mistake the opposition makes is all they do. And the lenient ref aided their cause, even though he got very frustrated with them for certain offences, and rightfully penalised them (with the help of his AR's and TMO). Doesn't french referees know the law of you can't play the scrumhalf at ruck time?? this happened at nearly every ruck. Hougaard hasn't even picked the ball up yet, and then there's an Argie falling over the ruck, or playing Hougie behind the ruck. They did this last week too, and I get the sense it is a tactic to slow the ball down so that it doesn't get to our backline so quickly to use the space (not that this field had any. Our local commentator mentioned that Salta's dimensions barely scrapes past WR's minimum requirements for a standard field).

But just like we saw yesterday, the discipline and the negative play of the Argies, came back to bite them. Thought Lavaninni was very lucky not to get a straight red for that illegal tackle on Coenie early in the match. Luckily the footage and the communications in Argentina is pathetic. Thought our guys lost their temper a bit too, but it's understandable if you have to play against a team that just wants to tussle and not play.

Our pack was again the dominant factor. Although, I thought Cassiem was the odd man out. He was very quiet, and made a few silly mistakes. Kolisi, has been impressive now, I think he's made that 6 jersey his.

Again, Rhule was poor in defense!! every time the Argies got over the advantage line and in try scoring mode, they advanced at his corner with him not even attempting to make tackles, and hope Serfontein and Kriel come to save the day.

Very poor game indeed. But alas, we got a bonus point away win (the first away win under Allister Coetzee). And you can only play with what is in front of you.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Thought Lavaninni was very lucky not to get a straight red for that illegal tackle on Coenie early in the match.

Odd, i thought the ref got that one totally wrong.

 

[FNS]

The first yellow was a bad ref call. Hands down.

As for SA beating Aus i think you underestimate them a lot. They are strong, they can change from att to def and vice-versa much faster than before. Also the combined SA sides in SR where a lot stronger that the Aus sides. Both wins for SA in aus and 2 defeats against NZ.

 

[The Jones Boy]

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating...

I am really looking forward to the Wallabies vs Boks matches to see where each team is in terms of what they can produce.

Historically the Bokke have a winning mindset against the Wallabies.
The Wallaby pack is a problem for them, however, even living off scraps and mistakes the Wallaby backline can score tries and make life difficult.
This is going to be very interesting.

For Argentina. I predict they will improve against the AB's, they always do...

 

[TRF_heineken]

The first yellow was a bad ref call. Hands down.

You mean, the one that was referred to the TMO, and the TMO advised the referee that a yellow card should be issued after the referee wanted to go with just a penalty??

The thing here is that those tackles are completely outlawed now by WR, so I don't get why some Argentine players still want to tackle like that, with or without arms, those tackles for the sake of player safety are very dangerous.

I think that he was lucky in getting the yellow, as it seemed that his left arm was partially being used in the tackle. If his left arm wasn't used to complete the tackle, I think the sanction would have been a straight red card.

As for SA beating Aus i think you underestimate them a lot. They are strong, they can change from att to def and vice-versa much faster than before. Also the combined SA sides in SR where a lot stronger that the Aus sides. Both wins for SA in aus and 2 defeats against NZ.

I'm a bit nervous now for the Aussies after these last 2 games against the AB's. I think guys like Genia, and Beale who we haven't seen much of during Super Rugby, has made a massive difference to their squad.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating...

I am really looking forward to the Wallabies vs Boks matches to see where each team is in terms of what they can produce.

Historically the Bokke have a winning mindset against the Wallabies.
The Wallaby pack is a problem for them, however, even living off scraps and mistakes the Wallaby backline can score tries and make life difficult.
This is going to be very interesting.

For Argentina. I predict they will improve against the AB's, they always do...

Historically the Bokke has a rather poor record in Australia. At home the record is better, but over there, we seem to really struggle.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

IMO Lavanini's first yellow is thoroughly deserved. That arm was never extended and the front arm only comes in AFTER impact. Thorough shoulder charge through and through and aimed at the knee. Oosthuizen in doubt for Aus. Now I know its not his knee that is the concern but he got up gingerly and I know from experience a ****le here can easily translate to an actual injury elsewhere. I had a painful foot once from someone stamping on it and it affected how I went into contact and I ended up with a dead arm that had me off the pitch.

Is the issue of Argentina's discipline not maybe imbedded deeper than the national side? I have over the years of Argentina's inclusion in both RC and SR come to the perception (real or not) that Argentine fans do not have a solid understanding of the rules of the game and expect that would probably also be the case for the test side.

Also, if the fans are happy to be blaming the ref every time that does not put any pressure on the staff to seriously look at themselves for the problem.

I don't mean that as an insult and know full well us South Africans also have a regular go at the referees. Just an observation.

 

[TRF_heineken]

IMO Lavanini's first yellow is thoroughly deserved. That arm was never extended and the front arm only comes in AFTER impact. Thorough shoulder charge through and through and aimed at the knee. Oosthuizen in doubt for Aus. Now I know its not his knee that is the concern but he got up gingerly and I know from experience a ****le here can easily translate to an actual injury elsewhere. I had a painful foot once from someone stamping on it and it affected how I went into contact and I ended up with a dead arm that had me off the pitch.

Is the issue of Argentina's discipline not maybe imbedded deeper than the national side? I have over the years of Argentina's inclusion in both RC and SR come to the perception (real or not) that Argentine fans do not have a solid understanding of the rules of the game and expect that would probably also be the case for the test side.

Also, if the fans are happy to be blaming the ref every time that does not put any pressure on the staff to seriously look at themselves for the problem.

I don't mean that as an insult and know full well us South Africans also have a regular go at the referees. Just an observation.

I think you touched on a subject, which you might get lambasted for, but I too have come to that conclusion.

Based on historic matches Argentina used to be a powerful scrummaging unit, with creative backline players. They were abrasive in the contact areas and were known to cause a scuffle, and have off the ball ****les with opposition.

But apart from Tuculet, their backline lacks creativity. Their scrums are being decimated, and their off the ball antics and abrasive challenges has just become stupid silly antics which never benefits them.

Now I don't know if it's because of a language barrier or how they learn the game, but without discipline, you can't be a successful international team.

 

[George Ford]

The Boks can only feel vindicated for their efforts in this match. The manner in which they dismantled the home team - not helped by some ill-discipline - speaks volumes for the strides of improvement they're making as a team.

To echo what is being said too few times, you can only play what's in front of you.. One would've expected this match to be more of a contest than what the scoreline suggests coz this is literally the return fixture from the previous week, but instead the Boks got stronger as the match went on.

For the Argies, perhaps they should relax their selection policy a bit, but I don't that would be an immediate solution. The 2 tries they scored were also opportunistic, even the one they fluffed which came off an intercept. The Boks forwards though were immense and basically won the match for them, a testament to the superior condition this Bok team had over all their opponents they faced so far.

While watching NZL/OZ game, I remember thinking this Bok pack physicality and work rate could be key to beating the Aussies and then they put up that performance !

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The Boks can only feel vindicated for their efforts in this match. The manner in which they dismantled the home team - not helped by some ill-discipline - speaks volumes for the strides of improvement they're making as a team.

To echo what is being said too few times, you can only play what's in front of you.. One would've expected this match to be more of a contest than what the scoreline suggests coz this is literally the return fixture from the previous week, but instead the Boks got stronger as the match went on.

For the Argies, perhaps they should relax their selection policy a bit, but I don't that would be an immediate solution. The 2 tries they scored were also opportunistic, even the one they fluffed which came off an intercept. The Boks forwards though were immense and basically won the match for them, a testament to the superior condition this Bok team had over all their opponents they faced so far.

While watching NZL/OZ game, I remember thinking this Bok pack physicality and work rate could be key to beating the Aussies and then they put up that performance !

I think you point out a few things to keep in mind, yes. On top of the Pumas' tries being opportunistic and avoidable (Coetzee taking the kick, Kriel taking the kick off) and the intercept off of a forced pass from Hougaard (which I count as having should been a try bar hernandez's brain fart/ poor execution) you could also add two more tries for us if Kolisi's pass was a bit more in line and Hougaard didn't force that pass for the intercept and even the one time we were in good position where Kriel couldn't hold on. The thing is a lack of accuracy. The positive is we can work on that and this side is still young. What it tells me though is there are players who aren't overcoming their issues. I still say drop Hougaard and Rhule and move Jesse Kriel to the bench. Those players just have too high an error rate to make up for their positives. Coetzee had a poor game but it was one poor game from him whereas he is usually solid while the players I mentioned have these issues on a continual basis.

For me;
- Rhule, + Lleyds/Combrinck
- Hougaard, + Vermaak
ASAP
Jesse Kriel on final chance. There are a number of players pushing for the center berth and I still say moving Serfontein to 13 is a legit option.