[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[TRF_Olyy]

3, no? Mercer, Simmonds and Hughes.

Good point, bump it up to three - the list of England caps has him down as a flanker rather than an 8 (I guess because early in his career he was more of a utility backrower, hence his social media saying he's an openside, but all his caps were at 8 and he's definitely settled there now)

Three years since our last new 8 isn't great, though (Mercer got his two caps that season too) - especially with the kind of form that Billy has brought to the table in that time

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

But didn't it take a combination of injuries and our worst 6n ever before he looked at changes? That's the thing, last time round it seems the changes were forced and not part of any greater planning. If we don't have an absolutely awful tournament, what's to say he will change anything? In 2017 we were still on the winning streak, although playing worse. I'd say the form of the current crop of players we are concerned about is worse than those we complained about in 2017.

Also that was only a year into his tenure so he was taking a good look at various players as he started to put together 'his' team. That's very different to the position we are now in.

On the last generation undroppables:

I'm pretty sure Hartley would have led us in 19, but for injuries. Although Hartley was past his best l'd have supported that for his leadership where there's been a gaping hole ever since. Jones hand was forced, but we need plans to cover injuries - see Cole below.

Brown was only ditched a year before the RWC and Jones didn't give himself time to get a proper replacement sorted - Daly made some howlers in the final and was shunted off to the wing in the next match in favour of Furbank. That Furbank didn't work out doesn't mean Daly's a good FB. Brown wasn't in dire form like some of those we're complaining about now, it was more a case of Jones preferring others with seemingly more rounded skill sets. I said at the time I'd have had Brown in Japan and not taking him was definitely a mistake.

And while Sincks took Cole's starting place on merit, it's a squad game and Cole showed in the final, what many had been saying for ages, that even his one trick, his scrummaging, was shot at that level. You don't legislate for your reserve TH having to play the whole game, but even so he was found badly wanting. I'm not sure there were many other great options - Schonert maybe - but Jones should still have been looking after deciding Hill, who he ridiculously fast tracked, wasn't up to it.

I'm all for experience provided form justifies it. Age isn't a factor per se on an individual level, but allowing a team to age together with several players on a downward path isn't great.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I'm not bothered by any players getting away. More bothered that every six nations you could probably make a starting 15 of south African players.

I don't know about others but having foreign players in the England team actually annoys me. Will player X who isn't really English play with as much passion and deserve it as much as player Y who has dreamed of wearing the white shirt their whole life?
Maybe they do but it's annoying to me but I get how others aren't too bothered about it.

Players like Flutey though make a mockery of the whole thing. There are other more recent examples but at least our current 23 isn't too foreign compared to most teams.

It's interesting how few foreign players that didn't go through the England rugby schools system have made any kind of impact for England. Just off the top of my head in recent times we've had Nathan Hughes (Fijian), Brad Barritt (SA) and Brad Shields (NZ), none of whom were any more than average internationals. I think it's rather encouraging that players who were born and/or raised in England are proving to be of a higher quality than the mercenary types. It speaks well of our development systems.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Don't think EJ's issue has been that he doesn't look at new players - we've got a load of props, locks and flankers knocking around now - the issue is he doesn't look at players in certain positions.
Since EJ took charge he's capped 46 new players,

• Zero flyhalves,
• Three scrumhalves (though I think Spencer's England career can be counted in seconds rather than caps, and Heinz' inclusion was a panic pre-RWC),
• Two 8s (though a couple of the flankers he capped could play there i.e. Wilson)

And those low numbers don't even tell the whole story. If you look at how many of those were forced (Lions or injury) and the number of caps the alternatives got when those they replaced were available, it goes down to basically only Heinz as being the change he made out of choice rather than necessity. Even that was because he seems to have fallen out of love with Quins players and they all vanished from the squad at a similar time. Actually now I think about it, it's quite suspicious how Robshaw, Care and Brown were all dropped pretty much simultaneously... Robshaw I could understand going to the bench as Curry & Underhill are definitely better but he wasn't that bad. Likewise Care and Brown. Considering the rumours about Jones making things personal, it's almost like the Quins senior players all challenged him after a poor year and he dropped the lot of them.

 

[LIONSxv]

I don't get his approach with a number of players. But Marcus Smith is the standout. He was his apprentice in the squads at 17/18, so knows his talent temprement. Yet is now a matured 22 year old, playing out of his skin but dosent get a look in. I'd argue that Smith is currently the best fly half in the British Isles barring, Russel and I believe Smith to be less error prone... Its bizzare for me

Hill was also fast tracked, but isn't playing as well as Smith, albeit in a generally poorer team.

He talks about x factor players. Yet dosent give any of the chance to play. Why not give kpoku or Isiekwe a call up instead of ewels. Both clearly have more athletic ability and would certainly give more weight at second row, even if they only came on as sub.
I'd argue that Ewels is in the squad for his calling and organisation as opposed to dynasism or size. A line out caller is not much use on the bench. He is player you start or don't have in the squad imo

 

[BPM]

OK. But I'm struggling to understand why you're continually mentioning Kpoku who a) hasn't played in a year and b) wasn't particularly impressive when he was last playing.

Similarly, Isiekwe hasn't really pulled up trees during his time at Saints, is mostly playing at 6 and seems to be persona non grata after a poor game on the SA tour.

Ewels has the major advantage of actually playing and being an out and out lock. He's not flashy, but he's fine as a 4th choice lock.

 

[LIONSxv]

OK. But I'm struggling to understand why you're continually mentioning Kpoku who a) hasn't played in a year and b) wasn't particularly impressive when he was last playing.

Similarly, Isiekwe hasn't really pulled up trees during his time at Saints and seems to be persona non grata after a poor game on the SA tour.

It's all about potential for me. Both players have the size and dynasism to be serious players. Can we really say that about Ewels? or Hill to a lesser extent. Second rowers can just get away been steady anymore, they either have to big or very athethic. Line out calling and second row nuances can be taught. Size and athlethism can't

I'm sure a loan could of been arranged for Kpoku to get game time.
Isiekwe was 19 on that tour and about 10 kg lighter. He clearly imo has more natural ability than Ewels

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

It's all about potential for me. Both players have the size and dynasism to be serious players. Can we really say that about Ewels? or Hill to a lesser extent. Second rowers can just get away been steady anymore, they either have to big or very athethic. Line out calling and second row nuances can be taught. Size and athlethism can't

I'm sure a loan could of been arranged for Kpoku to get game time.
Isiekwe was 19 on that tour and about 10 kg lighter. He clearly imo has more natural ability than Ewels

Size and athleticism can't be taught but they can definitely be developed. Also I don't think that Kpoku is as big as people remember; he used to be 126kg because he was an 18 year old playing as a tight five forward for senior teams - he'd had to bulk up massively in a short space of time and as a result was carrying much more fat than he is currently. The most recent weight I've seen for him was closer to 116.

I was under the impression that Isiekwe's also quite a bit lighter than he used to be as Saints see him pretty exclusively as being a back rower. Where did you find anything saying that he's 10kg heavier than he used to be? I'd seen that the exact opposite was true; that he'd gone from ~120 to ~110.

 

[LIONSxv]

Size and athleticism can't be taught but they can definitely be developed. Also I don't think that Kpoku is as big as people remember; he used to be 126kg because he was an 18 year old playing as a tight five forward for senior teams - he'd had to bulk up massively in a short space of time and as a result was carrying much more fat than he is currently. The most recent weight I've seen for him was closer to 116.

I was under the impression that Isiekwe's also quite a bit lighter than he used to be as Saints see him pretty exclusively as being a back rower. Where did you find anything saying that he's 10kg heavier than he used to be? I'd seen that the exact opposite was true; that he'd gone from ~120 to ~110.

Kpoku has always been a unit, 120kg +, as he hasn't played for a sustained period I'm not sure of his current weight. What we can say for sure, is that he is naturally a 6 ft 6 125kg second rower. Who is mobile, we simply don't enough of types of player to dismiss them.

Isiekwe's was a bean pole on that SA tour he was young and got out muscled. it was a question if he was a 105kg. Definitely bulked up significantly since then, and again is very athletic.

My original point is that neither are ready to be starting for England. However with proper management and game time, could be included in the squad as 4th choice lock. I'd sooner pick young players with lots of potential, than older steady as she goes ewels types. Hill hasn't done much as yet either. Lawes is going on 33, kruis unavailable, launch injured

Can you imagine playing SA at the next WC with your starting lock combo of Ewels/Hill?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Ewels will never be more than a bit part player. He will never start if 2 of Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launch and Hill are available.

Too early to judge Kpoku and not a position we need to take punts on. Isiekwe is a different kettle of fish and another example of Jones crass man management. I'd be gob smacked if he's 110 kg - that's Tom Curry. He's a big unit, does the tight stuff well, is probably the best around at restarts and is classy in the line outs. I'm amazed he's not in or around the squad.

Thats probably one of the things that p*sses me off most about Jones. Some players get discarded after the most cursory looks while others keep their places despite underperforming time after time. He doesn't seem to apply the same standards across the board and that's never going to lead to a totally happy camp.

 

[LIONSxv]

Ewels will never be more than a bit part player. He will never start if 2 of Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launch and Hill are available.

Too early to judge Kpoku and not a position we need to take punts on. Isiekwe is a different kettle of fish and another example of Jones crass man management. I'd be gob smacked if he's 110 kg - that's Tom Curry. He's a big unit, does the tight stuff well, is probably the best around at restarts and is classy in the line outs. I'm amazed he's not in or around the squad.

Thats probably one of the things that p*sses me off most about Jones. Some players get discarded after the most cursory looks while others keep their places despite underperforming time after time. He doesn't seem to apply the same standards across the board and that's never going to lead to a totally happy camp.

Exactly so we agree that we should pick players with potential X Factor, rather bit parts 17st locks. To be 17st and play lock, who have to be an exceptional athlete and good over the ball. I've seen enough of ewels to know he is neither. Hill the jury is still out

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Ewels will never be more than a bit part player. He will never start if 2 of Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launch and Hill are available.

Too early to judge Kpoku and not a position we need to take punts on. Isiekwe is a different kettle of fish and another example of Jones crass man management. I'd be gob smacked if he's 110 kg - that's Tom Curry. He's a big unit, does the tight stuff well, is probably the best around at restarts and is classy in the line outs. I'm amazed he's not in or around the squad.

Thats probably one of the things that p*sses me off most about Jones. Some players get discarded after the most cursory looks while others keep their places despite underperforming time after time. He doesn't seem to apply the same standards across the board and that's never going to lead to a totally happy camp.

I agree it seems very light but the most recently updated public weight of his was by Saints who have him at 111kg https://www.northamptonsaints.co.uk/person/nick-isiekwe

When you consider that Hill is pretty much the same height and supposedly 112kg I think it becomes more believable - they're built quite similarly.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The headline of his profile says 111 but the text says 119. What to believe??

Having seen him and Itoje standing together at Sarries, not only is Isiekwe visibly taller he was also noticeably broader. There were also reports that Isiekwe was the best in the Sarries gym. I'm going with heavier.

 

[LIONSxv]

The headline of his profile says 111 but the text says 119. What to believe??

Having seen him and Itoje standing together at Sarries, not only is Isiekwe visibly taller he was also noticeably broader. Isiekwe's were also reports that Isiekwe was the best in the Sarries gym. I'm going with heavier.

I've seen that photo, I think Itoje is established at 115kg. I would put Isiekwe at 120kg.
He has really gained weight since the staffers tour as a kid

 

[BPM]

I'm not questioning his ability or potential but Isiekwe is not playing well enough to demand selection at the moment and he's also playing at 6. If he were playing well and playing in the second row, it would be a no-brainer decision, but playing OK as a blindside flanker shouldn't result in an England call-up to play at lock.

You keep saying Hill is unproven. That may be fair to say at test level, but other than Itoje, there's a strong argument to say he's been the best lock in the Premiership for the last couple of seasons. He has earned his place, Isiekwe has not. It's really as simple as that IMO.

As for Kpoku, are you really saying he should be picked simply based upon his physical stats? Yes, a loan could/should have been arranged, but it wasn't and I imagine that's probably because Saracens thought he would benefit from regular starts in the Championship. Genuinely, I think that's where he is in his development right now. The fact is, Hunter-Hill was being picked ahead of him most of the time last season so even if Saracens rate him highly, they didn't seem to think he was ready for a starting spot in the Premiership. How can that possibly justify picking him for England? Particularly given we're a year down the line and he's gained no more experience (obviously that's not his fault).

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

As great as Isiekwe seems on paper, that ability just hasn't come to fruition. At Saracens the fact that he was always getting played in the back row could be explained away as they had arguably the best lock pairing on the planet blocking him from playing in the second row; but the same cannot be said of Saints who have stronger back row options than lock options, and yet he still consistently gets played at 6. There has to be something fundamentally wrong with his lock play, whether that be at the lineout, in the scrum or both. Also, even with as little faith as people have in EJ at the moment, the fact that he was initially so complimentary of Isiekwe before never picking him in a squad again after the SA Tour has to say something.

 

[LIONSxv]

As great as Isiekwe seems on paper, that ability just hasn't come to fruition. At Saracens the fact that he was always getting played in the back row could be explained away as they had arguably the best lock pairing on the planet blocking him from playing in the second row; but the same cannot be said of Saints who have stronger back row options than lock options, and yet he still consistently gets played at 6. There has to be something fundamentally wrong with his lock play, whether that be at the lineout, in the scrum or both. Also, even with as little faith as people have in EJ at the moment, the fact that he was initially so complimentary of Isiekwe before never picking him in a squad again after the SA Tour has to say something.

All fair and valid points, however answer me this. Who would you sooner have off the bench to make an impact in a game Isiekwe or Ewels? To be as lightweight as Ewels is, you really have to be outstanding... Which he isn't. Therefore give me a player with lots of ability, if yet unproven

Itoje also played a large chunk of his games @6 too for Sarries

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

All fair and valid points, however answer me this. Who would you sooner have off the bench to make an impact in a game Isiekwe or Ewels? To be as lightweight as Ewels is, you really have to be outstanding... Which he isn't. Therefore give me a player with lots of ability, if yet unproven.

Ewels, as he's a proven lock who will keep the scrum strong and ensure that we continue to win our own lineouts at the end of the game. The primary roles of a second row. Maybe Isiekwe is capable of doing that too, but until he actually plays lock consistently at club level we won't know.

And yes Itoje did play lots of 6 at Saracens, but that was after he'd already proven at both club and international level that he was very capable of performing the primary roles of a lock. Isiekwe is yet to do that.

 

[LIONSxv]

Ewels, as he's a proven lock who will keep the scrum strong and ensure that we continue to win our own lineouts at the end of the game. The primary roles of a second row. Maybe Isiekwe is capable of doing that too, but until he actually plays lock consistently at club level we won't know.

And yes Itoje did play lots of 6 at Saracens, but that was after he'd already proven at both club and international level that he was very capable of performing the primary roles of a lock. Isiekwe is yet to do that.

I'm afraid we will have agree to disagree. I've seen nothing in Ewels game to suggest he is international standard.
Therefore why not give someone with untapped ability a go

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'm afraid we will have agree to disagree. I've seen nothing in Ewels game to suggest he is international standard.
Therefore why not give someone with untapped ability a go

I'm by no means a massive fan of Ewels; I think he's a very average player. But while I've never seen him do anything particularly special at international level, I've also never seen him **** anything up. I've also never noticed any significant drop in the set piece when he's been playing. For a 5th choice lock, I'd say that's pretty good going.

Like others, I'm very aware that while Itoje's a top quality lock, he's undersized and will need a real unit to play next to him. I'd love for Isiekwe to pull through and offer that option because as I've said, on paper he's exceptional. But until he actually shows that he is a top quality lock, we can't waste caps on a player purely based on supposed talent that we've been waiting to come to fruition for 4 years now. Honestly, I've got more faith in Alex Moon. At least he actually plays at lock.