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[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

TBeastT

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Ewels in different coloured stripes
+2 inches and 2 stone. Since the main issue with Ewels is apparently how small he is, that should solve the problem.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Since the main issue with Ewels is apparently how small he is
Is it?
My issue is that he's bang average - like he'll fill the shirt, but you want more than that at international level.
Seen nothing from Moon to suggest his ceiling his higher than club rugby either
 

TBeastT

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Is it?
My issue is that he's bang average - like he'll fill the shirt, but you want more than that at international level.
Seen nothing from Moon to suggest his ceiling his higher than club rugby either
I mean I’m not saying I think Moon is the second coming or anything, just that at the moment I’d back him to do a better job than Isiekwe.
 

living sacrifice

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Couple of points to pick up on. Firstly when Isiekwe plays lock for us (which is does occasionally) he’s always a standout. In the back row he is good but nothing special to be honest.

Could he be an international lock? Yes, but not while playing 6 week in week out for an out of form saints team.


On Ewels, he’s exactly what you need from a 5th choice lock. A steady eddy. He’ll come in, play the set pieces well, not make any howling errors but won’t set the world alight either. He’s 5th choice, we don’t need our 5th choice to be anything other than steady.
 

TBeastT

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Couple of points to pick up on. Firstly when Isiekwe plays lock for us (which is does occasionally) he’s always a standout. In the back row he is good but nothing special to be honest.
My only issue with this is that, if he is such a standout when he plays lock, why doesn’t he regularly play there? There has to be something that coaches know about him that as viewers we can’t pick up on that means he isn’t suited to the position.
 

TRF_Olyy

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My only issue with this is that, if he is such a standout when he plays lock, why doesn’t he regularly play there?
Is it not just a case of wanting their best players in the side?
He plays blindside as well as lock, and the two starting locks don't - so put him in the backrow because he's too good not to play?
That's what Saracens did with Itoje: Kruis and Skelton didn't play backrow so they put Itoje there because they wanted to play all three
 

living sacrifice

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My only issue with this is that, if he is such a standout when he plays lock, why doesn’t he regularly play there? There has to be something that coaches know about him that as viewers we can’t pick up on that means he isn’t suited to the position.
Wrong way of thinking, he’s a standout in our pack compared to our other locks. That doesn’t mean much these days. No idea why he doesn’t start there more often to be honest. It might be our lack of a decent sized 8 which is why we need a bigger 6 playing with him?
 

TBeastT

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Is it not just a case of wanting their best players in the side?
He plays blindside as well as lock, and the two starting locks don't - so put him in the backrow because he's too good not to play?
That's what Saracens did with Itoje: Kruis and Skelton didn't play backrow so they put Itoje there because they wanted to play all three
I mean this definitely isn't the case. In the quarter final against Exeter last season (the last time Northampton put out an objectively 1st choice side with no rest or rotation) Isiekwe didn't even start - Northampton's 4-6 were Ribbans, Ratuniyarawa and Lawes.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Jonny Gray didn't start for Chiefs in the prem final - is he worse than Skinner?
Or were they just new players?
 

TBeastT

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Jonny Gray didn't start for Chiefs in the prem final - is he worse than Skinner?
Or were they just new players?
A different situation and you know it; Gray had just been flogged playing a series of knock out games in a row and needed the rest. Isiekwe had been on the bench for 2 of Northampton’s previous 3 games.
 

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So why is Isiekwe starting every game this season if he's so ****, then?
 

TBeastT

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So why is Isiekwe starting every game this season if he's so ****, then?
On the flank you mean? Isiekwe’s a good player, I haven’t said otherwise. He’s just not shown to be a top lock.
 

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To be honest, is anyone really that bothered by the ones who have got away? I mean specifically the England eligible players that have now been capped by other nations? I can't think of a single player that makes me think 'Wow, I wish we'd have capped him first, he's better than anything we've got!' Just to pull out a few names getting mentioned on here: Tompkins' first couple of games for Wales were good, and then his form fell off a cliff. Johnny Williams has been okay so far, but nothing really notable. Redpath had a good game against England, but then so did every Scot that day. He's only played one international, so it's impossible to tell how he's gonna turn out. Tomas Francis is often a bench player despite Wales' front 5 problems. Will Rowlands is... er... who is he again? Gary Graham has been solid, but nowhere near the impact of Curry, Underhill and Willis. Can anybody think of anyone that we really should have capped but didn't and now they're lost to us? Personally, I don't think Eddie's done too badly judging who is England international quality and who isn't.

Also, Eddie has always said he wants players who want to play for England. If they do, they take on board his comments, knuckle down and work hard and try to improve so they can get in the squad. Sure, there are some issues around favourites blocking their path in a few positions, but that's a slightly different matter. When players decide that rather than work hard to get into an England team that has huge competition for places they'd rather play for a country like Wales or Scotland that doesn't have so much competition for places, I'm happy to see them go quite frankly. England's team should be full of the best-of-the-best from a great big pot of players, not guys who'd rather take the easy out of playing for a smaller nation just because they're more likely to get a game.

(English arrogance R Us! :p)
Williams is the only one for me that I feel that has got away. A remember a couple of years ago myself and a couple of others had hopes of him making into the team. The cancer sabbatical I feel didn’t help the case.
 

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I haven’t said otherwise
You said you don't know if he can be trusted to win a lineout, earlier

You're talking about the guy like he's had a handful of bench appearances and is a complete unknown quantity
 

TBeastT

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You said you don't know if he can be trusted to win a lineout, earlier
You’ve been quite vocal about saying back rowers don’t need to be good in the lineout. Isiekwe’s shown to be a good player, not a commanding lineout lock.
 

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You’ve been quite vocal about saying back rowers don’t need to be good in the lineout
How is that relevant to what I said?
not a commanding lineout lock.
That's mad, as well, as he's a lineout specialist - he called the Sarries lineout when on the pitch, and he called the England lineout in his one(?) appearance too
 

TBeastT

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How is that relevant to what I said?

That's mad, as well, as he's a lineout specialist - he called the Sarries lineout when on the pitch, and he called the England lineout in his one(?) appearance too
I said he's a good player but hasn't been shown to be a top lock. You replied by saying that I'd said he couldn't be trusted to win a lineout, as if by me saying he couldn't do that then I was saying he wasn't a good back rower. I was reminding you that you've said many times that back rowers don't need to be good in the lineout, so whether or not I think he's good in the lineout has no bearing on whether or not I think he's a good player.
 

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I said he's a good player but hasn't been shown to be a top lock. You replied by saying that I'd said he couldn't be trusted to win a lineout, as if by me saying he couldn't do that then I was saying he wasn't a good back rower. I was reminding you that you've said many times that back rowers don't need to be good in the lineout, so whether or not I think he's good in the lineout has no bearing on whether or not I think he's a good player.
Weird interpretation,
You said you'd not called him a bad player - I pointed out you said you wouldn't trust him to a win a lineout because (apparently) he's not shown he can do that
Considering he's a lineout specialist saying you wouldn't trust him to win a lineout is a pretty bad indictment




It's a pointless argument anyway - Jones has shown no interest and repeatedly picking a guy like Ewells ahead of him shows he must be several miles down the pecking order by now.
All the better for Saints, really, as they already lose Lawes to internationals
 
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TBeastT

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Weird interpretation,
You said you'd not called him a bad player - I pointed out you said you wouldn't trust him to a win a lineout because (apparently) he's not shown he can do that
Considering he's a lineout specialist saying you wouldn't trust him to win a lineout is a pretty bad indictment
So then once again, why is it that he hardly ever plays lock if he's apparently so good at the set piece? I didn't specifically say he's bad in the lineout, I said that for some reason coaches don't play him at lock so there must be something wrong with his set piece; whether that be lineout or scrum - you're right that its probably not lineout.
I still maintain that either there's something really wrong with his set piece, or the Wasps coaches view him as a long term backrower - Everyone was telling me that hookers his age don't play hooker cause they need to be eased in, but no one can really point to any examples.
Out of curiosity, why is it that in Barbeary's case his playing in the back row means that there must be something wrong with his set piece or he's a long term back rower, but in Isiekwe's case he's just too good to be left out and his set piece must be absolutely fine?
 
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