[2023 Six Nations] England vs Scotland - 4 February 2023

[Ragey Erasmus]

If England can't be bothered to turn up then I can't be bothered to watch them. **** them until they show some god damn pride in the jersey.

 

[Scotty]

So how long are LCD TCurry Kelly and Slade out for? Obv first 2 wont be back just dont know the timeframe.

Malins is great in a team that has a strong attack putting him in a position to score trys, meaning he has alot of skill and is a very balanced runner and is very accurate as we saw with his try from the crossfield kick, but won't create alot himself, take watson as a counter he has the pace to get round the outside even one on one. Malins also isnt that great defensively.

Also ive changed my mind slightly and id like to see vs Italy: assuming same availability

Genge George Sinks
Chessum Ribbans
Ludlam Dambrandt Willis
JVP Faz
** this is where im stuck
Watson Steward Murley

Walker/Dunn - dont care
Rodd
Cole
Itoje(benched for a kick up the arse)
BCurry or Earl, curry wasnt great but very inexperienced.
Mitchell(just not Youngs)
Smith
Lawrence

Was hapoy for OHC but wasnt really on the bandwagon, not against it but Murley should get a shot.

Worrying thing about Steward is he's had all that time to work on defence woth BS and KS at Tigers so not like they dont know his weaknesses. Hopfully he improves as the rest of his game is great though wish he would add a passing game in there when he attack.

Freeman is a 15 option, as is Malins for a more playmaking FB, if we are accepting defensive liabilities then Daly has to be an option everyone hated it but going forward he was v stong in attack. And he got better at the FB role. Not gunning for Stewards head btw but like Itoje he isnt safe just because of credit in the bank.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Next person that suggests Farrell is in the 23 gets a brick through their window.

(Don't worry the brick will skew wide)

 

[curtbob7]

People seriously suggesting Freeman ahead of Steward need to give their heads a wobble

 

[Lé Ddanno]

People seriously suggesting Freeman ahead of Steward need to give their heads a wobble

See also Malins.

**** it call up Furbank

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So how long are LCD TCurry Kelly and Slade out for? Obv first 2 wont be back just dont know the timeframe.

T Curry expected to be back for the Wales game

 

[TopTen2003]

Staggered by the total lack of leadership and ownership in the England side.

I feared the worst when SB picked Farrell as captain and also continues the Itoje pick despite him being frankly awful for England since the RWC final 2019. Love Maro but he's looked lost for too long.

A huge well done to Scotland- please do enjoy your weekend on the back of a great win- well deserved.

But from an England perspective? Wow do we need to sort out some key issues.

Midfield looks totally lost.

Back row doesn't seem to have any synergy with tight 5, regardless of who we pick. Just totally out done- physically and also athletically.

Other than that? Defensively woeful and just zero idea of how to build momentum. We are a million miles away from Ireland, France, and the Southern Hem teams.

Steve Borthwick needs to learn very quickly about the "leaders" who are going to let him down.

 

[die_mole]

how many pages will this thread go? it's aftermidnight y'alls time and things are just slowing down. Things could really pick up tomorrow.

 

[TobesHodges]

The fear now is that we'll play a completely different team (reserves) against Italy next weekend, when really we need to build momentum and synergy with the current first XV.

Personally I don't think it's quite as doom and gloom as some suggest, I'd just like to see Lawrence come in at 12 at this point, but apart from that, there's not a lot else I think really needs doing.

 

[Reiser99]

Reality is we're pretty where we started. We've got players out of position, players being picked on name and not form, basics letting us down, players not looking motivated or giving 100%.

For me that's probably the worst part of this. You would have hoped Borthwick would have got them to try harder and play with some pride. Playing well might take time, but too many just don't look like they care.

Jones has left England in a complete mess this cycle and if he had some secret, world cup winning plan, he clearly didn't share it with the players.

Would 5th and only beating Italy be enough to sack Borthwick? I doubt it, RFU would look even more of a joke. Personally I'm writing this world cup cycle off completely now. We ain't winning it and it's doubtful if we'll even play good rugby.

My worry is we've committed to a coach who as many have pointed out, is completely unproven as a head coach outside of 2 1/2 seasons. Yes, Leicester improved massively and deserved to win last year, but they never looked dominant and played a style of rugby that made you sit up in your chair.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

That was the worst I've seen scotland play in a while, du han excepted. Lucky to get away with that one.

Didn't take opportunities, made poor decisions eg to kick when they had numbers, kicking in field and not very far from 5 metres out on more than one occasion, didn't adapt their attack to England's defence when england weren't committing any players to the ruck, continued with kicking game they were losing, Finn Russell had a nightmare, etc.

England clearly tried to simplify things; understandable for a first game next new coaches, couldn't really have expected a lot, they can only improve from here. Showed good intent, as you'd also expect. We're excellent at securing their own ruck.

 

[higgik]

We missed Slades defensive leadership badly. Those gaps wouldn't have been there without him.
I've been critical of him in attack but in this system he might be very interesting.

Chessum superb.
Questions over Itoje for me now...bet I get slated for that suggestion.

Dan Kelly would have been great for that game.

The rest...same again...let them buy in to the system...

Oh and Bring in Ted Hill.

Watch for Quins and see how Marchant tends to fly out leaving gap in centres.
Actually mention by Sanderson et al. When they played Sale.
Hill would enable Dombrandt and Curry to be link men and jackallers much more in the open.
Kelly would give defensive leadership, while Itoje needs a kick up the ****.
Drop either Smith or Farrell, my current is drop Farrell, as Smith will find it easier to work Evans patterns.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

T Curry expected to be back for the Wales game

Yeh the Prestige magic trick didn't work.

 

[higgik]

So how long are LCD TCurry Kelly and Slade out for? Obv first 2 wont be back just dont know the timeframe.

Malins is great in a team that has a strong attack putting him in a position to score trys, meaning he has alot of skill and is a very balanced runner and is very accurate as we saw with his try from the crossfield kick, but won't create alot himself, take watson as a counter he has the pace to get round the outside even one on one. Malins also isnt that great defensively.

Also ive changed my mind slightly and id like to see vs Italy: assuming same availability

Genge George Sinks
Chessum Ribbans
Ludlam Dambrandt Willis
JVP Faz
** this is where im stuck
Watson Steward Murley

Walker/Dunn - dont care
Rodd
Cole
Itoje(benched for a kick up the arse)
BCurry or Earl, curry wasnt great but very inexperienced.
Mitchell(just not Youngs)
Smith
Lawrence

Was hapoy for OHC but wasnt really on the bandwagon, not against it but Murley should get a shot.

Worrying thing about Steward is he's had all that time to work on defence woth BS and KS at Tigers so not like they dont know his weaknesses. Hopfully he improves as the rest of his game is great though wish he would add a passing game in there when he attack.

Freeman is a 15 option, as is Malins for a more playmaking FB, if we are accepting defensive liabilities then Daly has to be an option everyone hated it but going forward he was v stong in attack. And he got better at the FB role. Not gunning for Stewards head btw but like Itoje he isnt safe just because of credit in the bank.

If Farrell at 10 then Kelly, Marchant in centres with Watson, Murley and Malins. Farrell needs goid communicators around him. Malins offers that as does Kelly.
Or go Farrell, Kelly, Slade, Watson, Murley, Freeman.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I did call the Sinfield defence situation.
Tigers don't have a great defensive system and he's very new to the game still.

 

[higgik]

Next person that suggests Farrell is in the 23 gets a brick through their window.

(Don't worry the brick will skew wide)

He can play 10 but definitely not 12.
Options
Farrell, Kelly, Slade; Murley, Freeman, Steward
Farrell, Kelly, Lawrence; Murley, Freeman, Malins
Smith, Lawrence, Marchant; Murley, Freeman, Malins

 

[Which Tyler]

Out of interest - why do people keep calling for Lawrence at 12?

Is it just desperation?
From what I can tell, he seems to play IC about once a year, he's no more a 12 than Farrell or Slade are (as in, he could learn it with game time, but until he gets that game time, he isn't an IC).

IMO the solution to the problem of playing people out of position isn't to play someone else out of position.

ETA: for starts at IC vs other, from https://all.rugby/club/england/squad
Farrell: 56 : 164 (25% of starts at IC)
Slade: 18 : 185 (10% of starts at IC)
Lawrence: 6 : 53 (10% of starts at IC)

 

[j-dawg]

I think Farrell is such an imposing character and presence on the team that it doesn't allow those around him to grow as leaders, players and decision makers. I can only imagine Farrell runs the show at training, which is fine when you're performing (see Johnson 2000 - 2003) but when you're the weak link on a Saturday afternoon all it is doing is hampering the ability of others to step into that leadership role. While Farrell is there, there is no vacuum to fill hence we have a team of followers and not leaders and whether England win or not depends on whether Farrell is firing or about to s**t the bed.

 

[BPM]

Reality is we're pretty where we started. We've got players out of position, players being picked on name and not form, basics letting us down, players not looking motivated or giving 100%.

For me that's probably the worst part of this. You would have hoped Borthwick would have got them to try harder and play with some pride. Playing well might take time, but too many just don't look like they care.

Jones has left England in a complete mess this cycle and if he had some secret, world cup winning plan, he clearly didn't share it with the players.

Would 5th and only beating Italy be enough to sack Borthwick? I doubt it, RFU would look even more of a joke. Personally I'm writing this world cup cycle off completely now. We ain't winning it and it's doubtful if we'll even play good rugby.

My worry is we've committed to a coach who as many have pointed out, is completely unproven as a head coach outside of 2 1/2 seasons. Yes, Leicester improved massively and deserved to win last year, but they never looked dominant and played a style of rugby that made you sit up in your chair.

So on the bolded …

Which of the players picked have not been in form domestically/in Europe i.e. current from going in to the 6 Nations?

I'd argue Borthwick has picked the form players. While I'd agree Itoje has been nowhere near his peak level of performance for some time and was definitely poor yesterday, he's been consistently good for Saracens.

Does he need a kick up the arse? Absolutely. Should he be an automatic pick right now? Probably not. BUT … Who had a really compelling case to be picked in his place (the key question)? Honestly, no-one … I rate Ribbans and I'd like to see him get more opportunities with England, but he hasn't been tearing up trees to the point that he's made himself a 'must pick'.

Also, apart from Farrell, who has been picked out of position? Malins is a 15, but it's hardly like he wing is unfamiliar to him these days.

I don't want Farrell picked at 12, but the only alternative who is regularly playing 12 is Tuilagi, who is fairly fortunate to be in the squad IMO. Going back to form, he's been OK, but hasn't exactly shone for Sale. The other option is picking Lawrence, but that's also picking a player out of position …

On the italics, this is just petulant BS. We're in a s***ty place right now and one win might be as good as it gets, but would that be Borthwick's fault? The 6N features two of the world's top 3 sides. We play Ireland and Wales away from home too. That puts us in a very tricky spot and setting in ridiculously high expectations is not going to help. He needs time and a fair shot and frankly we can't afford to be arrogant and expect to win right now.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Now that's interesting as I've been saying that for a while now and keep getting shot down.
If we can find a proper tight head lock I'd happily move Chessum to LH and drop Itoje. He's not worth his position at the moment and very small for an international lock.

I've been banging this drum for ages and largely getting flamed for it. I've always felt he was a bit underpowered and unbalanced the pack, but that was a price mostly worth paying when he was otherwise having a big influence on matches. But those days of being there or thereabouts for MOTM most games feel like they're in the past. The game's either moved on or he needs to recalibrate.

I don't believe that there's really any shortage of effort or players aren't trying. Instead I think we have an unfortunate mix of some players clearly past their best, some who just aren't as good as their hype suggests and a whole shedload of inexperience - Chessum, Curry, Dombrandt, Ludlam, JVP, Smith, Marchant, OHC, Malins and Steward from the starting XV were all sub 20 caps which is still in international nappies really. The sprinkling of stardust that any team needs is also missing - who's going to provide that game turning piece of magic as McVdM did yesterday or peak May could? Malins can't and watching Irish OHC has looked good but he doesn't make the hairs on the back of the neck stand up with possibility in the way Arundell does. Add in a revolving selection door through injuries or otherwise and a new game plan / coaching set up and what did we realistically expect?

On Steward. He's still young and should be our FB for years. He's rock solid under the high ball, possibly the best in the world, which is great. But opponents will realise this, so will cut down the kicking and look for other ways to test him. Like most players there are definitely areas for him to work on to become the finished article.