• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

50:22 and more to be globally trialled by WR

die_mole

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
4,060
Club or Nation

Bristol

quite legitimately think the emphasis should be on a team to overcome the other team infringing rather than have people in the bin, especially when these "professional fouls" you talk about are often being half a meter (often less) in front of the line, or losing their balance and dropping to theyre hands whilst going for the ball
when i was coming through "professional foul" was reserved for taking someones head off or at worst a tackle (early/late) off the ball....people talk about giving cards for things are are often just straight up mistakes/accidents

can you imagine if football started giving cards for offside?...give the team that was wronged the ball and play on

"Committing a penalty shouldn't be the smart tactical play. Is this what we want to teach the children?" no its not...but currently we're teaching them to milk penalties and cards to skew a game and i dont think thats much better
football gives out cards automatically for professional fouls so I don't see your point (not to mention you can't commit an offside infraction as a tactical advantage so that's just a bad faith argument.) Intentionally foul someone= yellow card. Commit any foul as the last defender=red card.
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,453
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

football gives out cards automatically for professional fouls so I don't see your point (not to mention you can't commit an offside infraction as a tactical advantage so that's just a bad faith argument.) Intentionally foul someone= yellow card. Commit any foul as the last defender=red card.
of course you can, lob the ball upfield and if someone is off side they can get to is sooner/first, big advantage....but they dont give cards for it...even five times in a row, free kick and play on, you only get cards for for a foul like a dangerous tackle or maybe decent
 

die_mole

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
4,060
Club or Nation

Bristol

of course you can, lob the ball upfield and if someone is off side they can get to is sooner/first, big advantage....but they dont give cards for it...even five times in a row, free kick and play on, you only get cards for for a foul like a dangerous tackle or maybe decent
that's getting away with being offside. A professional foul is when you commit a foul because the result of penalty being called is preferable to letting play go on. Cards are given for that all the time. In fact in the official rules they are listed before foul play for reasons to be sent off.

From the IFAB website.

Screen Shot 2022 06 16 at 70308 PM
Screen Shot 2022 06 16 at 70157 PM
 

Attachments

  • Screen Shot 2022-06-16 at 7.01.57 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2022-06-16 at 7.01.57 PM.png
    184.3 KB · Views: 2

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,453
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

that's getting away with being offside. A professional foul is when you commit a foul because the result of penalty being called is preferable to letting play go on. Cards are given for that all the time. In fact in the official rules they are listed before foul play for reasons to be sent off.

From the IFAB website.

View attachment 14107
View attachment 14105
then there is a big difference in how its written and how it officiated in all the games ive watched, rugby must be the only sport in the world where there is a growing call for refs to have more impact/influence, all the other sports i watch people generally want things sorted out by the players
 

Cruz_del_Sur

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
3,094
Country Flag

Argentina

Club or Nation

CASI

Another thing i would change, yesterday if i could:
Team A is in possession. There is a ruck. PLayer a (from team A) ilegally holds player b (from team B) preventing player a from disengaging and going back to wherever he wants to go.
Player b 'overreacts' and team A is awarded a penalty. The conversation with the ref is always the same. Ref tells captain from team B something along the lines: 'i know he was being held but you he cant take the laws into his own hands, you need to let me deal with that.'
The problem i see is
- They NEVER or hardly ever deal with that
- that creates a HUGE incentive for players to illegally hold others in the ruck and this is the root cause of the problem.


Player A creates a (n ilegal) situation, player B reacts and B gets penalized. Well, you can tell yourself you are addressing it by punishing B ex post but that is naive at best, idiotic at worst. B didnt arrive at the ruck thinking 'hey, lets create a situation', A did. Yet A gets rewarded for that which reinforces A's incentives to do it again.

Not saying B is correct.
 

Which Tyler

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Messages
7,579
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

I both agree and disagree.
Ref.s need to start pinging Player A for holding the tackled player in, but Player B also has to know that retaliation is always going to get you punished more severely (and rightly so).

The trouble is, I don't think there's a law against holding the tackled player in, so we'd need yet another law to ping that, or at least a new ref's directive saying that being held in excuses the tackled from trying to get away - which would be ripe for further abuse.

And yes, retaliation should always be penalised more harshly than the original transgression - otherwise you've created a charter for everything to escalated to a full-on 30-man brawl.
 

Reiser99

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
6,343
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Leicester

I think there is a law. Wasn't it against Newcastle where Ludlum was holding a player (American guy with the beard whose name I can't remember) in and then he got punched. I'm sure in the conversation the ref said it would have been a penalty for holding the player if not for the punch.

It definitely needs to be reffed more consistently.
 

Don't Skip Leg Day

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
3,738
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Northampton

I can’t ever remember a ref giving a penalty for holding in etc but always the player who reacts gets punished.

For me refs are pathetically weak on what they look at and what they actually ref. So hit and miss but overall it’s just still not good enough.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
3,094
Country Flag

Argentina

Club or Nation

CASI

Ref.s need to start pinging Player A for holding the tackled player in, but Player B also has to know that retaliation is always going to get you punished more severely (and rightly so).

This sort of responses is, imo, a huge part of the problem. I am trying to adress A, i specifically mention B is not correct in his behaviour, and yet we continue to turn our heads away from A and focus on B. The problem, the instigator, the root cause, is A, not B. And we keep hearing about how the ref should have, would have, could have pinged, but that never happens.

Im my book, retaliation is a lesser offense than aggression yet the laws of the game tend to punish retaliation equally or worse than aggression. That, for me, is not only nonsensical but also ruins part of the game. It allows (for the possibility at least) of a weaker player for team A to instigate a fight with B's best player. Worst case, they are both off and team A wins. Then we hear post game about how the ref could have, should have, would have pinged this or that, ad nauseam.

You start punishing A severely and the instances of B doing something collapse overnight, guaranteed.

The trouble is, I don't think there's a law against holding the tackled player in
Law 14!

You could argue once the ruck is formed there is a bit of a grey area, but just to use a well known example of what i am taking about when Owen Farrell held CJ stander got into this situation both were not part of the ruck anymore. I picked that example becase a) i have no skin in that game, b) I want people who act like farrell in that instance to be severely punished, instant YC and c) i want people like Stander to get a slap on the wrist IF AND ONLY IF the do not close their fists.

You might be looking for another thing. My point, again, is that as it stands this encourages instigators, punishes people who get caught with illegal moves and tends to penalize more heavily to the people who react. I really, really think that is a terrible for the game.
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,453
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

definitely need to stop penalising players for not rolling away if theyre being held in there but the other team, yet another way we're teaching guys to milk penalties...its even more baffling when the ball would be easily playable if someone just tried rather than pointing at the guy on the ground
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Top