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A Political Thread pt. 2

Ragey Erasmus

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Kin hell. Boris got me at the end there.
Can't wait for that lying cretin to be out, although the trend is for bad to be replaced by worse and worse so god help us if whoever comes after him lowers the bar even further... It's already sitting on the floor.
 

Gavin

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Wonder how this will turn out

Israel’s longest-serving leader, Benjamin Netanyahu, has been ousted from office by a loose coalition of rivals from across the political spectrum, united by their wish to end his 12-year run in power.

The opposition leader, Yair Lapid, a centrist former TV news anchor, won a confidence vote in the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, by 60-59 seats.

Lapid will not initially become prime minister. Instead, under a power-sharing agreement, his former foe and far-right advocate for the settler movement in the Palestinian territories, Naftali Bennett, is to be installed as the country’s leader.

Bennett, who has ruled out a Palestinian state and wants Israel to maintain ultimate control over all the lands it occupies, will be prime minister for the first two years of a four-year term before handing over to Lapid.

The self-described “government of change” – a mix of ideologically opposed politicians from hardline Jewish religious nationalists to a small Arab Islamist party – will be sworn in later on Sunday.
 

The_Blindside

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Wonder how this will turn out
I was wondering that too. I mean Neytanyahu has been there for a long stretch, but don't know enough about this new coalition and who the two leaders who will be PM for the next 4 years. But reading that article does show how fragmented Israeli politics is.
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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If you watch the clip he explicitly says he is not comparing the two so I think this is a little unfair.

He was asked whether one was morally obligated to follow all laws ever and gave the obvious modern-ish example of that not being true.

You run the risk of offence whenever mentioning 20th Century Germany but I do feel this was a situation where the example was apt - whatever you think of his broader point
 
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ncurd

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If you watch the clip he explicitly says he is not comparing the two so I think this is a little unfair.

He was asked whether one was morally obligated to follow all laws ever and gave the obvious modern-ish example of that not being true.

You run the risk of offence whenever mentioning 20th Century Germany but I do feel this was a situation where the example was apt - whatever you think of his broader point
I think it can be said that steering well clear of Godwin's Law is always the best idea, always.
 

The_Blindside

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The PM of the US. Oops slip of the tongue there Bojo. :p Yes, you’re not a buffoon.
 

Gronde van der Hogg

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Can't wait for that lying cretin to be out, although the trend is for bad to be replaced by worse and worse so god help us if whoever comes after him lowers the bar even further... It's already sitting on the floor.
Entertaining this thought experiment is actually quite scary. Who is actually worse than Boris? I don’t think there is anyone who could realistically replace him and be worse. He truly is our Trump.

I guess Rees Mogg, Patel or Mark Francois could be worse but even the tories wouldn’t be that masochistic as to put them in the running for leadership.
 

The_Blindside

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We’ve discussed this before on here.
 

Reiser99

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As I've said for me the issue is that working class (yes I know this term is misleading) voters no longer identify with Labour which was their USP. They were the party of the poor, not of the left. Now they are seen more as a party of the left, many working class voters actually realise that their views have more in common with the Tories. This means that labour's vote share is split between other left wing parties. I don't think Labour can win again, especially if the SNP continues to dominate in Scotland and definitely if Scotland leaves as they can't get a majority in England.
 

Gavin

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As I've said for me the issue is that working class (yes I know this term is misleading) voters no longer identify with Labour which was their USP. They were the party of the poor, not of the left. Now they are seen more as a party of the left, many working class voters actually realise that their views have more in common with the Tories. This means that labour's vote share is split between other left wing parties. I don't think Labour can win again, especially if the SNP continues to dominate in Scotland and definitely if Scotland leaves as they can't get a majority in England.
It's a sad indictment of society if working class people now feel that the Conservative Party represent their views better than the Labour Party....

But I'm sure many of us can postulate on what views the Conservatives and working class people have in common....

*Cough* anti-EU *Cough* anti-BLM *Cough* anti-foreigners *Cough* English superiority *Cough* anti-woke *Cough* believe in Britain *Cough* Brexit means Brexit
 

ncurd

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As I've said for me the issue is that working class (yes I know this term is misleading) voters no longer identify with Labour which was their USP. They were the party of the poor, not of the left. Now they are seen more as a party of the left, many working class voters actually realise that their views have more in common with the Tories. This means that labour's vote share is split between other left wing parties. I don't think Labour can win again, especially if the SNP continues to dominate in Scotland and definitely if Scotland leaves as they can't get a majority in England.
I saw some analysis recently part of the issue is the fact unions are to some extent part of the past. Many people due to minimum wages and tightening up of labour laws aren't reliant on them in the way they once were. Of course some professions still are. However because your union was important the ties with Labour and your actual living outlook was tied up with that you voted regardless of your actual views on other matters. This gave Labour an extremely strong base which could be relied on even if those people were on social matters were conservatives. You essentially had two kinds of Labour voter the working class person who believed "in the cause" and working class person who voted Labour because his union fought for their wages.

There is no easy to win those people back because they were never with you in the first place. It doesn't help the 'broad' appeal of the Tories means on electoral math they need less votes per seat and pretty much always have done. Labour has to get better at showing how they defend working class people again but I'm not sure how, my Dad had a "middle class" job and the South West was never a hotbed of union activity. But the issue on those matters is "Labour don't care about us anymore they care about the gays" and even when you point out they do and do far more for the the Tories they simply don't want to listen. Plus as I said earlier this thread Bob the old union guy can't "learn to code" (a phase as a software engineer I detest because it literally takes years to learn to do things properly), his actual profession in manufacturing is unlikely to ever come back, so its a lot easier to blame someone else rather than successive governements screwing him over.

In reality most people vote for more progressive parties so its not quite the doom and gloom it first seams like. Its why talks of electoral pacts are so vocal.

Labour would destroy themselves even more than they have already in Scotland if they had a pact with the SNP.
Labour being ****** in Scotland is part of the reason why they have to consider it. Stop fighting unwinnable battles against people that broadly agree with you and put efforts in the seats you can win.
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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Labour being ****** in Scotland is part of the reason why they have to consider it. Stop fighting unwinnable battles against people that broadly agree with you and put efforts in the seats you can win.
It would just perpetuate the problem of the "anti-British" narrative that they've already been caught up in imo. It would see their support suffer in England even more as well I think.

They would absolutely poach a few from the SNP who arent ardent nationalists, but I think they've probably flipped already so i dont know how much potential there still is there.

Labour need to properly examine themselves, their identity and whether they ever actually want to be in power.

Regardless of the truth, they are percieved by the voters they have lost to be anti-british, super woke, untrustworthy and more interested in helping other countries than the British people. This may or may not be the truth, but in politics that rarely matters unfortunately - anything Labour do to perpetuate that narrative will further condemn them into irrelevance (any sort of alliance with the SNP would do that). If Labour want to have even the slimmest chance in the next election they need to stop worrying about the tories, who are absolutely made of teflon, and focus on being British and not perpetuating those perceptions that have lost them support.

They could of course be super moralistic and stick by those principles that have been negatively associated with them, but then they also condemn themselves to never have a chance to put their legislative principles into action.

There has to be some give and take - the tories have done that very successfully. They've delivered on Brexit and some right wing principles and rhetoric, but have also spent huge swathes of money that have allowed them to catch many in the centre and on the left as well whilst not being too economically left to force those real right wingers to leave the party. Theyve worked out how to toe the line.

Ultimately, this is not a government acting very "conservatively", but has managed to construct a rhetoric that it is, meaning its been able to target multiple camps - Labour need to learn from that.
 

ncurd

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but have also spent huge swathes of money that have allowed them to catch many in the centre and on the left as well whilst not being too economically left to force those real right wingers to leave the party.
I'm thoroughly unconvinced by this statement. Most center-right Tories completely hate their economics policies (mainly because they believe the B word to be economic suicide). Apart form spending huge amounts on the pandemic where have they been spending? We had austerity and nothing else has huge investement almost of public services have had real terms cuts and are creaking at the seams because of it. I had a brief look for figures pre 2020 no evidence of any real increase in expenditure.
Regardless of the truth, they are percieved by the voters they have lost to be anti-british, super woke, untrustworthy and more interested in helping other countries than the British people. This may or may not be the truth, but in politics that rarely matters unfortunately - anything Labour do to perpetuate that narrative will further condemn them into irrelevance (any sort of alliance with the SNP would do that). If Labour want to have even the slimmest chance in the next election they need to stop worrying about the tories, who are absolutely made of teflon, and focus on being British and not perpetuating those perceptions that have lost them support.

They could of course be super moralistic and stick by those principles that have been negatively associated with them, but then they also condemn themselves to never have a chance to put their legislative principles into action.
Just following the Johnson/Tory playbook isn't going to work either and neither is pandering. Starmer has done nothing but push all that to one side, focus on "real issues" and all he'd done is successfully **** off his (Corbyn's) hardcore supporters.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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The Corbynites really have no clue just how much they are contributing to continued Tory rule. They have done more for the Tories than the Tories have.
 
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