A Political Thread pt. 2

[General Melchett]

You'll have to forgive me, these quotes seem like he has succeeded at nothing, UKIPs performance was an unmitigated success, as is reforms current rise.

He could be deemed the driving force behind Brexit.

So to say he's delivered nothing, and call UKIPs rise and influence surrounding Brexit a failed start up are silly comments.

This is silly stuff. Along with Johnson & Gove he was a prominent voice during the Brexit campaign but didn't "deliver Brexit". He wasn't even part of the official Vote Leave campaign and played zero part in writing or negotiating the withdrawal agreement.

 

[dirty harry]

This is silly stuff. Along with Johnson & Gove he was a prominent voice during the Brexit campaign but didn't "deliver Brexit". He wasn't even part of the official Vote Leave campaign and played zero part in writing or negotiating the withdrawal agreement.

What's the withdrawal agreement got to do with UKIP and Farages role in delivering the referendum and winning it in the first place?

To say that this wasnt a Farage success is wildy deluded, even if you hated him, hated Brexit, and hated UKIP, they got exactly what they want, infact id argue they far surpassed even their goals set

 

[General Melchett]

What's the withdrawal agreement got to do with UKIP and Farages role in delivering the referendum and winning it in the first place?

To say that this wasnt a Farage success is wildy deluded, even if you hated him, hated Brexit, and hated UKIP, they got exactly what they want, infact id argue they far surpassed even their goals set

You claimed he 'delivered Brexit' and implied he did it single handedly.

I pointed out that delivering Brexit involved more than shouting through a megaphone on a bus. The withdrawal agreement had to be negotiated and ratified by Parliament before Brexit was truly delivered. He played no part in that.

 

[Welsh Exile]

You’re both correct.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

This is silly stuff. Along with Johnson & Gove he was a prominent voice during the Brexit campaign but didn't "deliver Brexit". He wasn't even part of the official Vote Leave campaign and played zero part in writing or negotiating the withdrawal agreement.

And shat himself on the night of the Brexit vote thinking they’d lost. Seems to have been completely written out of history and forgotten about by mainstream media.

 

[dirty harry]

You claimed he 'delivered Brexit' and implied he did it single handedly.

I pointed out that delivering Brexit involved more than shouting through a megaphone on a bus. The withdrawal agreement had to be negotiated and ratified by Parliament before Brexit was truly delivered. He played no part in that.

No, you made that implication, my quote was:

'He could be deemed the driving force behind Brexit.'

Thats 100% true, he and UKIP pressured Cameron into the referendum (along with EU arrogance) and then he was a big contributory factor in winning the vote.

The negotiations after Brexit was confirmed were a disgrace from start to finish, but that's what happens when you empower people who are incentives to disrupt negotiations, to negotiate on behalf of people that disgust them. I'd argue the UK would have been better off with Farage at the table, how worse could it possibly be?

But ultimately, Farage is no failure who delivers nothing, he is incredibly successful at what he does, and id argue he also has a very good nack of bailing before things turn sour.

 

[dirty harry]

You're both correct.

How can the arguments that Farage is a failure who has delivered nothing, AND that he has been successful both be correct lol

 

[General Melchett]

No, you made that implication, my quote was:

'He could be deemed the driving force behind Brexit.'

Thats 100% true, he and UKIP pressured Cameron into the referendum (along with EU arrogance) and then he was a big contributory factor in winning the vote.

The negotiations after Brexit was confirmed were a disgrace from start to finish, but that's what happens when you empower people who are incentives to disrupt negotiations, to negotiate on behalf of people that disgust them. I'd argue the UK would have been better off with Farage at the table, how worse could it possibly be?

But ultimately, Farage is no failure who delivers nothing, he is incredibly successful at what he does, and id argue he also has a very good nack of bailing before things turn sour.

A fair bit of revisionism there Harold. Cameron didn't bow to pressure from Farage and UKIP. It was the ERG and right wing of his own party.

I don't think the history books will show UKIP to be a success tbf. Under FPTP they were shite.

 

[Welsh Exile]

How can the arguments that Farage is a failure who has delivered nothing, AND that he has been successful both be correct lol

Because Brexit happened (success) but not what Fararge wanted (failure) I’m sure of you ask Fararge how’s it’s going now he would say it’s a betrayal but wouldn’t take any responsibility.

Personally I would disagree with the wording delivered as he didn’t deliver Brexit but he was the key figure in the movement.

 

[General Melchett]

As much as I can't stand him, the person who has the biggest right to claim they delivered Brexit was Boris. Lead voice in the official Vote Leave campaign and was PM who oversaw the completion of negotiations with the EU and ratification by Parliament.

He did what Theresa May failed to do.

 

[Welsh Exile]

As much as I can't stand him, the person who has the biggest right to claim they delivered Brexit was Boris. Lead voice in the official Vote Leave campaign and was PM who oversaw the completion of negotiations with the EU and ratification by Parliament.

He did what Theresa May failed to do.

And, I would argue, Cameron enabled it.

 

[General Melchett]

And, I would argue, Cameron enabled it.

Yup, unfortunately. Boris scored the goal and Cameron gets the assist.

 

[dirty harry]

Because Brexit happened (success) but not what Fararge wanted (failure) I'm sure of you ask Fararge how's it's going now he would say it's a betrayal but wouldn't take any responsibility.

Personally I would disagree with the wording delivered as he didn't deliver Brexit but he was the key figure in the movement.

Well what hand in negotiations did Farage have? Brexit was a disaster, but not because of what Farage did pre and during, his goal was to see Brexit (as a positive vote) to come to fruition, and he absolutely succeeded.

Maybe that's the confusion, when I talk about Brexit in Farages context I mean delivering the referendum and winning the referendum, that's where his input ended.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yup, unfortunately. Boris scored the goal and Cameron gets the assist.

As a wise man once said

 

[dirty harry]

A fair bit of revisionism there Harold. Cameron didn't bow to pressure from Farage and UKIP. It was the ERG and right wing of his own party.

I don't think the history books will show UKIP to be a success tbf. Under FPTP they were shite.

They became the largest party with 20 odd or so MEPs.

I agree there were other pressures, but they wouldnt have had any influence without the 2014 UKIP victories dont you think? What did the media call it, a 'political earthquake'.

But let's say I'm wrong, my over arching point is constantly underestimating and downplaying your political opponents is absolutely silly. If ive over played Farages influence in British politics, I think I'm best placed to counter his influence going forward, and the fear either Reform becomes legitimised by enough defectors, and rise a right wing wave to political influence, or worse still Farage manages a coup of Tories (they are primed), and becomes PM, becomes a reality, degrading him as a failure who has achieved nothing absolutely plays into his hands IMO.

We saw that happen with Brexit itself, and (and i dont want to get into it) with the orange one. The strategy of establishment mockery and dismissiveness has absolutely plagued the world for 10 years, let's not have a British version.

 

[dirty harry]

And, I would argue, Cameron enabled it.

This might be the only time you hear me defend Cameron...

But he did at least go hat in hand to the EU begging for crumbs to avoid the referendum (i know, he did play a political game with the idea before that, and was trying to undermine UKIP). He also tried to play down the EU discussion when he came to power, unsuccessfully so.

 

[General Melchett]

This might be the only time you hear me defend Cameron...

But he did at least go hat in hand to the EU begging for crumbs to avoid the referendum (i know, he did play a political game with the idea before that, and was trying to undermine UKIP). He also tried to play down the EU discussion when he came to power, unsuccessfully so.

I think Cameron also grossly misjudged public sentiment. He called the referendum at a time when people were hacked off in general, especially with immigration and they in the mood to protest vote. I think Remain would have won if he'd called it earlier during his first term when he and Clegg were doing ok.

The Remain campaign were outwitted and outfought by Dominic Cummings and Vote Leave. Cummings was a big big part of that referendum result.

 

[dirty harry]

I think Cameron also grossly misjudged public sentiment. He called the referendum at a time when people were hacked off in general, especially with immigration and they in the mood to protest vote. The Remain campaign were outwitted and outfought by Dominic Cummings and Vote Leave. Cummings was a big big part of that referendum result.

I agree with that, and id probably add that Cameron came into power, tried to shelf EU talk, but then weaponised it, before it got out of hand, and he was left holding the .

 

[Reiser99]

I think Cameron also grossly misjudged public sentiment. He called the referendum at a time when people were hacked off in general, especially with immigration and they in the mood to protest vote. I think Remain would have won if he'd called it earlier during his first term when he and Clegg were doing ok.

The Remain campaign were outwitted and outfought by Dominic Cummings and Vote Leave. Cummings was a big big part of that referendum result.

Tbh, it was a range of factors.

1. Misjudged the public sentiment.
2. Remain ran an awful, negative, fear mongering campaign against a positive, here's what you'll get Brexit campaign (although majority of it was lies)
3. Remain didn't have populist figures leading them and many politicians did not get fully on board.
4. Many people didn't think Brexit would win and used it as a protest vote. If those people voted how they actually wanted rather than just trying to give two fingers to the government it could well have swung it.

 

[ncurd]

I think Cameron also grossly misjudged public sentiment. He called the referendum at a time when people were hacked off in general, especially with immigration and they in the mood to protest vote. I think Remain would have won if he'd called it earlier during his first term when he and Clegg were doing ok.

The Remain campaign were outwitted and outfought by Dominic Cummings and Vote Leave. Cummings was a big big part of that referendum result.

I still go by my old theory as well that Cameron thought we'd have a coalition rather than him winning (governments rarely increase seats). The referendum could be offered as part of the revised coalition deal with the Lib Dems.

But that part of the plan failed when he no longer needed Clegg