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A Political Thread pt. 2

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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Apart from the obvious disregard for human life and lake of empathy for refugees this country has I found this article interesting for 2 main reasons.

First we literally just had Raab talk about how much Britain does for refugees and that Europe needs to take their fair share of Afghan refugees. (Hypocrisy beggars belief here). Yet now we are actually going to send boats back and risk people's lives.

Second was this part.

"The government has authorised Border Force officials to use the new tactic - but only in limited circumstances.
However France is strongly against the plan, saying it breaks maritime law and accusing the UK of blackmail.
But Boris Johnson's spokesman said any plans would be "safe and legal" and would comply with the law."

This is where Brexit actually start to negatively impact our credibility. We have ministers on public record saying that we would break the rules in a limited and specific way over Northern Ireland. So when France says it's illegal and Johnson says it is legal and only in specific circumstances, who are you going to believe? The country who has openly admitted they would break international law in a specific way and has also already broken the deal it signed or a country that hasn't broken international law.
The theory is that being soft on people coming from France encourages it as a course of action in the long term. This encourages both people traffickers and those ordinary people willing to make a journey across the channel.

If you are tough on it now and make it clear that this is not a risk with any realistic reward, it discourages people traffickers and saves the lives of those who may have risked them on a dangerous trip across the water.

It's a tough sell but an attempt to, in the long term save the most lives.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Would that really deter them, though?

I mean a very real possibility of a channel crossing is drowning - being turned around to try again the next day doesn't seem like that much of a deterrence.
 

Dan Kelly is Irish

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Let’s be real it’s only been announced to take eyes of the NI thing.

I doubt it will change anything anyway.
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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Would that really deter them, though?

I mean a very real possibility of a channel crossing is drowning - being turned around to try again the next day doesn't seem like that much of a deterrence.
Changes the balance, if it halves the likelihood it may deter people.

It seems logically sound but I'd like to see stats
 

Reiser99

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The theory is that being soft on people coming from France encourages it as a course of action in the long term. This encourages both people traffickers and those ordinary people willing to make a journey across the channel.

If you are tough on it now and make it clear that this is not a risk with any realistic reward, it discourages people traffickers and saves the lives of those who may have risked them on a dangerous trip across the water.

It's a tough sell but an attempt to, in the long term save the most lives.
Tbh that's completely missing my point. Whether or not getting tough will deter France is irrelevant to what I said.

My point is that imo Brexit and the governments disregards for the treaty it signed as well as international law undermines Britain's creditability when it claims it is following international law and another country claims it's not.

My other point was that we're hypocrites who have recently told other countries they should take more refugees in when we are actually trying to make it as difficult as we can for refugees to get here.
 

Gavin

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I think there's a fundamental lack of understanding regarding the migrant crossings of the Channel.

Firstly, asylum seekers do not have to claim asylum in the first 'safe' country they enter.

Secondly, it is not illegal for migrants or anyone to cross the England Channel. Border Force have no powers to herd them back to France.

Thirdly, since leaving the EU the UK removed itself from the Dublin Regulation which allowed people who had claimed asylum in other country to be deported back to those countries. So no the UK cannot deport individuals back to continental Europe.

As with all things the lack of understanding by the general public is being used by the Conservative Government
 

ncurd

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Way back I was doing some work for the home office (May was Home Sercretary) for detecting migrants both asylum seekers and traffickers trying enter via the coast.

The project was considered a joke on both the technical and enforceable level. But hey I got paid...
 

Which Tyler

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Way back I was doing some work for the home office (May was Home Sercretary) for detecting migrants both asylum seekers and traffickers trying enter via the coast.

The project was considered a joke on both the technical and enforceable level. But hey I got paid...
I hope you did a terrible job as well
 

Dan Kelly is Irish

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Watch a video on YouTube about this Cop in America aggressively arresting a 73 year old woman with dementia.

Insane.
The Sgt berated a bystander, change case names on video evidence to try and hid body cam footage but still has his job.

and now i'm in the rabbit hole of watching Audit videos etc.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Where have those voters actually gone? If they've gone to undecided or smth then it doesn't matter a huge amount as they'll come back for elections
Not seen the full results but apparently Farage's latest grift (Reform? Reclaim? can't remember which) got a big boost as did undecided

Really it doesn't mean anything - if the election were tomorrow those undecideds would go back to Conservative,
The only threat to the Tories is if Farage's lot start gaining ground and start gaining back the UKIP/Brexit party votes from a few years back



Edit: Just seen the results below, apparently the undecideds didn't get any boost
 

Reiser99

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Watch a video on YouTube about this Cop in America aggressively arresting a 73 year old woman with dementia.

Insane.
The Sgt berated a bystander, change case names on video evidence to try and hid body cam footage but still has his job.

and now i'm in the rabbit hole of watching Audit videos etc.
Obviously it is appalling from the officers, but I did find it interesting at the end when the commentator said that it was good she got $3million dollars in a settlement, but bad that it's tax payers money, not the officers involved.

The reality is though that the American people through voting and their own views have created a culture where this is able to happen and so actually do need to take responsibility. They have a culture where they accept police officers with minimal training, especially in regards to negotiation and awareness of disabilities when dealing with members of the public. The other big issue is the gun culture which gives police a get out of jail free card, " I didn't know if they were going to pull a gun etc..." Reality is it is a legitimate concern for police and while that doesn't excuse their actions, it does create the culture of shoot first and ask questions later, which trickles down to events like this where police will arrest first and then find out the facts later. I feel that too often people condemn this, but then don't actually do anything when they can to help change things.
 

Dan Kelly is Irish

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You say it doesn't excuse their actions but yet you do.

1) The majority of the American public are in of stricter gun control and greater police training. But like with a lot of politics is just not that simple especially in America with the Police unions (Who are traditionally republican voters)

2) In what part of this video if there a legitimate concern for the officers wellbeing? what relevancy does gun control even have on this? It's not even about the arrest it's about a Sgt (Who will be training other cops) who breaks a 73 year old woman arm and throws her onto the ground who is later caught on camera saying to other cops he "Loves it" and trying to badger a eyewitness, getting a administrative leave. This isn't even factoring the changing of case names on video footage.
 

Reiser99

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You say it doesn't excuse their actions but yet you do.

1) The majority of the American public are in of stricter gun control and greater police training. But like with a lot of politics is just not that simple especially in America with the Police unions (Who are traditionally republican voters)

2) In what part of this video if there a legitimate concern for the officers wellbeing? what relevancy does gun control even have on this? It's not even about the arrest it's about a Sgt (Who will be training other cops) who breaks a 73 year old woman arm and throws her onto the ground who is later caught on camera saying to other cops he "Loves it" and trying to badger a eyewitness, getting a administrative leave. This isn't even factoring the changing of case names on video footage.
You have a point about tampering with the videos and case files, those are the actions of officers who know they are in the wrong. Also I'm not excusing their actions, I'm pointing out that America has developed a police culture of using force first. It doesn't make it right, but there is an implication that these officers are the exception, not the rule when actually they way they behave is how may officers in America behave. My point is that if an American is outraged by this, but also votes for politicians who keep the status quo then they have accept some responsibility.

About gun culture, again it doesn't make the actions of the police right, but as long as they are worried about someone pulling a gun they will always use force first. That is part of the American culture and if you support it then you can't be surprised when an officer uses force. It's not an excuse, it's a factor that helps cause the situation. Life is not as simple as 'he was just a corrupt, violent police officer', there can be others factors that have helped create the situation without calling them an excuse.
 

Groundhog

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In England for the first time in a long time. No masks is a huge culture shock, but won't lie I'm enjoying it!
 
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