New PM by Wednesday according to Dave
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- Thread starter Draggs
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My favourite TV channel. When did it start doing politics?
Good luck to her, she'll need it. The timing of the next GE will be fascinating.
Although she hasn't got a mandate, I guess we should at least be grateful that its a result of political fallout and not a deal in a pizza house.
My favourite TV channel. When did it start doing politics?
Unfortunately, the Dave re-run IS talking about Blair => Brown
I agree there should be another election, but for other reasons. Even had Cameron stayed on, I think there should have been another election.
You run an election under a manifesto - a promise to the electorate of what you will and will not enact. The UK political environment has changed enough post-Brexit to justify that the governing party provides a new set of promises to the people. Without a Brexit manifesto that is voted on by the public, the Tories can pull any policies out of their arses and enact them, and they could be deeply ideological and unpopular. I'm under the impression that May would have won an election anyway, but she would have had to have conceded some ground on her most ideological views in order to have gotten them past an electorate. My biggest concern is labour law. In an election, the left-wing/centrist parties could have pressured the Tories into promising to transfer various protections provided by the EU into UK law. Without an election, the Tories have relative free reign.
Legally the Tories have the right to form government. But morally it should be for the people to decide what shape our country takes post-Brexit.
And just think of the millions of working poor that voted for Brexit, only to be led by someone who once opposed the minimum wage.
You run an election under a manifesto - a promise to the electorate of what you will and will not enact. The UK political environment has changed enough post-Brexit to justify that the governing party provides a new set of promises to the people. Without a Brexit manifesto that is voted on by the public, the Tories can pull any policies out of their arses and enact them, and they could be deeply ideological and unpopular. I'm under the impression that May would have won an election anyway, but she would have had to have conceded some ground on her most ideological views in order to have gotten them past an electorate. My biggest concern is labour law. In an election, the left-wing/centrist parties could have pressured the Tories into promising to transfer various protections provided by the EU into UK law. Without an election, the Tories have relative free reign.
Legally the Tories have the right to form government. But morally it should be for the people to decide what shape our country takes post-Brexit.
And just think of the millions of working poor that voted for Brexit, only to be led by someone who once opposed the minimum wage.
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One of the main planks of the anti Brexit band wagon was the uncertainty it would cause!!
Now we have those same guys who want to add to the confusion and uncertainty with a two month long general election process!
Brown was an unelected PM who went full term and now May is also unelected and who should, for the sake of certainty, go full term so...........guys, suck it!!
Now we have those same guys who want to add to the confusion and uncertainty with a two month long general election process!
Brown was an unelected PM who went full term and now May is also unelected and who should, for the sake of certainty, go full term so...........guys, suck it!!
Well aren't you a ray of sunshine
So when you argued that the EU was undemocratic, you were only paying lip service to democracy - you don't actually believe in it...
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From the point of view of a very casual observer who doesn't really care what happens on the island of Britain, that doesn't really hold up.
Blair to Brown was still a standard enough labour government, there was no drastic change. Going from a remain politician to a leave one is pretty drastic considering it's an outgoing prime minister who campaigned against the incoming one. In my opinion it does require something more for the general population to have an influence over rather than have them suck it up!
Especially considering the backlash that followed the leave vote a general election "confirming" the leave vote is something the population deserved.
What a load of rubbish!
Cameron was remain and so was May so where is the difference other than May is to institute the will of the people democratically deciding to leave?
Seems to me that I am not the one who does not believe in democracy here.
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You know you are making absolutely no point when you say this?
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It should go without saying that any premise that assumes that a single factor holds equal weight in two different cases, without showing a logical reason why, is inherently flawed.
It is reasonable to be against the European Union for democratic reasons while believing that democratic reasons are not strong enough to be worth calling a General Election for in this case.
It is also reasonable to be for a General Election in this case, despite the uncertainty it would cause, while also being for the European Union because of the uncertainty that would be caused by doing so. Which, without being able to remember everything said here, is not a position that I am aware anyone is actually taking.
For the record, I believe the situation would have to be substantially graver than it currently is for democratic arguments for a new General Election not to be paramount.
It is reasonable to be against the European Union for democratic reasons while believing that democratic reasons are not strong enough to be worth calling a General Election for in this case.
It is also reasonable to be for a General Election in this case, despite the uncertainty it would cause, while also being for the European Union because of the uncertainty that would be caused by doing so. Which, without being able to remember everything said here, is not a position that I am aware anyone is actually taking.
For the record, I believe the situation would have to be substantially graver than it currently is for democratic arguments for a new General Election not to be paramount.
you don't care about democracy you only care about whether or not your opinion holds up, you wanted an election for brexit cause you really had nothing to lose and everything to gain
with a general election you now fear that your opinion could lose, the risk of a general election is greater than the reward so now you opt out
someone who believes in democracy should never be against an election taking place... i could understand being indifferent to one but there should never be a negative attidue towards elections
i agree with everything that you say but i find this to be extremely offensive
black lives matter is a movement not an organization, anyone can claim to be a part of it and tweet reflecting the group... unless it is someone who has spoken for or works with the actual organization there is no reason for black lives matter to be associated with those comments
police officers on the other hand are all trained professionals who work together in small groups... our country has a history of police officers creating/destroying evidence, others ways of up the crime, and silent approval of their fellow officers crimes, all officers are responsible the culture of policing and our country has a police culture where the worst officers (and worst everything, cause americans have treated blacks like second class citizens until-) are in black communities and we really just don't give a **** until now
the apt comparison would be some moron who supports cops saying something about them wishing cops would kill blacks would be an appropriate
It would appear to me that those who supported Remain are now using any argument, any opportunity, however small, to claw back the defeat that they suffered on June 23 in a democratic election.
I do not care whether there is a snap general election or not (other than the continued uncertainty) as I have no vote in that either! That is a matter for the Conservative party but one can see the improvement in the USD rate (a dodgy measurement when you consider the minor fall in the exchange rate over a basket of worldwide currencies) and markets that the certainty created by May's accession has meant.
However, I firmly believe that the British people clearly spoke and it is now up to the UK politicians to act on that decision else why hold elections/referenda?
I also see it as wrong to re run a lost vote on the grounds that the vociferous minority may make the more noise or those with vested interests want it (as per The EU on Eire over Lisbon) - and who is to say that that is not what is surreptitiously happening now!
Did people who wanted to leave the EEC shut up after they got hammered in 1975 referendum with only 33% of the vote they've been a vocal minority now a slim majority. Remember also the referendum was done to silence a minority of Tory MPs due to Cameron lack of strong majority in parliament (it was a campaign promise I think he thought he was going to back put of due to another coalition with the lib dems no one was predicting a Conservative majority).
Let's get this right the only people who say there is a clear mandate are those that want to press forward with the Brexit and they are just vocal as those who don't.
To put this into perspective a 2% swing in the direction towards remain would yield very marginally a different result. I'll bet you 100 dollars leave people would be demanding a second referendum or GE if that were the case. That swing is also less than swing towards the Tories in the 2010 general election so well withing undecided voters who may change their minds.
But you're right a democracy is best served by the opposition shutting up after they've lost a vote.
The real reason why remainers are so vocal and leavers are so defensive. This why by no a definitive result remain supporters have nothing to loose through another vote whilst leave supporters know very well it can go the other way.
It's also very poor form to completely dismiss the opinion of an extremely large minority of voters especially when leave has a huge range of potential answers. I'd say the majority of people would prefer Brexit lite.
Also a 15% drop in buying power when most trade you do is in GBP/USB or EUR. Has a massive effect on the economy as a whole. The markets have pretty much stabilised because it's clear article 50 isn't imminent Dave said he'd invoke it immediately which is why there was initially panic. The true impact of leaving is yet to be seen but judging by initial reactions it won't be good unless we stay in the EEC completely which we won't due the free movement of people.
Let's get this right the only people who say there is a clear mandate are those that want to press forward with the Brexit and they are just vocal as those who don't.
To put this into perspective a 2% swing in the direction towards remain would yield very marginally a different result. I'll bet you 100 dollars leave people would be demanding a second referendum or GE if that were the case. That swing is also less than swing towards the Tories in the 2010 general election so well withing undecided voters who may change their minds.
But you're right a democracy is best served by the opposition shutting up after they've lost a vote.
The real reason why remainers are so vocal and leavers are so defensive. This why by no a definitive result remain supporters have nothing to loose through another vote whilst leave supporters know very well it can go the other way.
It's also very poor form to completely dismiss the opinion of an extremely large minority of voters especially when leave has a huge range of potential answers. I'd say the majority of people would prefer Brexit lite.
Also a 15% drop in buying power when most trade you do is in GBP/USB or EUR. Has a massive effect on the economy as a whole. The markets have pretty much stabilised because it's clear article 50 isn't imminent Dave said he'd invoke it immediately which is why there was initially panic. The true impact of leaving is yet to be seen but judging by initial reactions it won't be good unless we stay in the EEC completely which we won't due the free movement of people.
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The Lisbon, and Nice, referenda are terrible examples of the EU not being democratic. They're examples of Ireland taking democracy to the extreme, referenda do that as they allow people who are completely uneducated on a matter make a decision for a country, over here there is a law that both sides of a referendum require equal media coverage and in both the Lisbon and Nice Treaty referenda this allowed the no campaign to hijack the vote by spreading lies and exaggerating the effects of voting yes (sounds familiar). As a result the Oireachtas over here decided to have another vote as it became clear that the No vote voted that way due to misinformation.
Yeah the no side made all sorts of arguments such as we'd be forced into an E.U army, we'd have to raise our corporation tax, our farmers would get ****ed, we'd lose our negotiating power, we'd have abortion etc implemented because E.U law would somehow universally supersede Irish law yada yada. Basically it was all a huge pile of scaremongering nonsense which has come true in no way. To be honest I think straight up lying to people was a far greater sin than having a second referendum.
A friend of mine who is a research scientist says they know plenty of people who this is happening to.
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...projects-because-of-post-brexit-funding-fears
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...projects-because-of-post-brexit-funding-fears
I put it that proponents of democracy would find both disagreeable.
My suspicion is that, given the broad acceptance of some very undemocratic procedures in the UK, that the leave camp were being mostly disingenuous by positioning themselves as some kinds of champions of democracy.
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One can find something disagreeable without opposing it.
And I don't think Tony is the entire Leave camp.
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