All Blacks' centre pairing...

[Darwin]

i haven't been bothered to read too much of this thread, sorry, but why bother changing a midfield that has served the All Blacks so well? i'd say some extra dynamism on the bench with someone like SBW would be great to finish off a tired team.

Why bother change the midfield? Because many believe the midfield would be even better than it is with SBW in it rather than Nonu... if Dan Carter signed for Leinster I'm sure you would have no hesitation saying he should start at first-five, despite the fact that Sexton has served Leinster so well! SBW has never impressed coming off the bench - for me he is either in the starting team or sitting in the stands...

also for those who doubt Rokocoko, well he hasn't done much wrong and when given the chance he can still score tries. he understands the All Black environment and is very much part of the team so i can't see Graham Henry ignoring him for the World Cup.

In a way I agree with you - Rokocoko hasn't done much wrong...however he also hasn't done much right either! He had a terrible season in 2009, he was better in 2010 but it was hardly a great season for him - I can't recall him making many (if any) clean breaks the whole International season! By the end of the season he was clearly 4th ranked among NZ wingers (behind Gear, Jane, and Toeava), and with Sivivatu returning (rated as the best winger in the country before injury) he is clearly not assured of a spot. His form during this years Super Rugby season hasn't been great either - he has already been dropped for a game. I'm not saying he is completely out of the race to make the AB's rugby world cup squad, but he will have to be much improved during the rest of Super Rugby season if he wants to make it (especially with the likes of Guildford, Maitland, Ranger et al. in good form).

 

[dangandan]

For a basic summary of the arguments:
1) SBW brings a lot more to the table than Nonu when it comes to dynamic play
2) SBW + Fruean play in a back line with Carter every week
3) Nonu is heavily penalised on a regular basis

those are good points. but i just feel that when it comes to the crunch, Nonu and Smith will be a lot more solid than SBW and Freun. they have no experience at that level.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I think my selection of leonard is more of a reflection of my disliking of Elis than my bias towards waikato. I have said many times lately that I think Elis in the first few rounds of the super15 is playing the best footy of his life and yes I do believe he's a front runner for All Black selection and Henry & co seem to like picking him and I think that has a lot to do with the fact he has an established combination with Carter at all levels. But also put his performances in perspective. He's playing behind easily the best forward pack of any of the NZ teams and he has the best 10 in the world playing outside him.

But for me that doesn't override the fact that when he puts an all black shirt on his clearance from the rucks is bordering on padestrian and Cowan isn't far off either. And up until last weekends game I would have had mathewson infront of leonard but that game showed a huge gap in the difference of kicking skill between the two players. Clearing the ball to the backs with speed is going to be critical to the effectiveness of the AB backline. Perfect example would be last season when the backline was stuttering with Cowan on the field then all of a sudden sparked into life when he was replaced by weepu in almost every game.

In general but not always (in both examples) to me elis seems to only decide what he's going to do with the ball when he's got his hands on it where leonard hunts in behind the forwards looking for quick ball and seems to decide what he's going to do with it before he gets it so when the ball arrives he executes the play straight away. That what can work out to be an extra few sec advantage for the 10 recieving the ball can change the game.

Come world cup time the AB's will be deadly from 10 - 15 who ever gets selected. But to take advantage of that we need 9's that feed them fast ball. and be able to kick well in conditions that suit.

Weepu has to be the man, I really believe he is as critical to the AB's success this year as anyone else. he's for sure out best 9. I'm worried that if he's not on the field and Cowan and Elis are backing him up the AB's backs aren't going to get the fast ball they deserve.

Also think you are being hard on leonard, if not for injury he would have been a much more regular selection in the AB's over the last few years. The last chance he had for the AB's was in 2009 I think? and he had to leave the field early after getting kicked in the head. Last year he was arguably the form 9 of the ITM cup untill that head clash that ruled him out for an extended period.

I think the fact you suggest leonard is 6th in line may show a direct bias against waikato/chiefs players.

Weepu, Cowan, Ellis, Mathewson, then Leonard/Fotuali'i/anyone else you may want to bring up. So I was a bit harsh he's the 5th option at best. His delivery isn't as good as you think it is, although I do agree Cowan is easily the slowest. Injury hasn't prevented Leonard playing for the AB's, it is the fact he has clearly not been in the top 2 that has stopped him.

 

[Aedaphon]

Well the general consensus here seems to be an SBW-Smith pairing would probably be best.
SBW has proven himself (if briefly) to be a test-level player in the Autumn Internationals. Having said that I think the 3 centres in the squad come RWC will be Nonu, Smith and SBW, depending on how the Super 15 season pans out.

 

[Aedaphon]

Weepu, Cowan, Ellis, Mathewson, then Leonard/Fotuali'i/anyone else you may want to bring up. So I was a bit harsh he's the 5th option at best. His delivery isn't as good as you think it is, although I do agree Cowan is easily the slowest. Injury hasn't prevented Leonard playing for the AB's, it is the fact he has clearly not been in the top 2 that has stopped him.

Does Fotuali'i qualify for the All Blacks? From what I remember he's a pacific islander and hasn't fulfilled the domestic requirements yet.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Oh my bad he played for Samoa on their end of year tour. He is a NZ citizen he was born here.

 

[Larksea]

as far as nonu goes it's important to note that he seems to be more diciplined for the AB's than he is in super rugby. I think in super rugby last year he was the most penalised back in the competition, but with the all blacks seems much more focused and lesslikely to be a liability. Plus sonny bill is no angel, the odd body check he comes up with in super rugby gets panalised and during world cup if he does that he will likely end up in the bin.

But it also must be noted that that offload sonny has could very well win some tight games and his defencive cover can't be faulted. He and carter together seen to be a very good combination.

At the end of the day if fit they will both get a chance and who ever looks best at that time will get the nod for critical games.

 

[donmcdazzle]

^^ Your argument for Nonu can just be used for the question marks over SBW. He was very well behaved on the EoYTour, and has given one penalty away for a shoulder charge in Super15. Nonu got two yellows in the same game, one for a shoulder charge miles worse than SBW has ever done in rugby. If Nonu does any of the dumb crap he does week in week out for the 'canes it would cost the AB's too.

Agree though they will both have a chance and it'll be up to who impresses most.

 

[Aedaphon]

as far as nonu goes it's important to note that he seems to be more diciplined for the AB's than he is in super rugby. I think in super rugby last year he was the most penalised back in the competition, but with the all blacks seems much more focused and lesslikely to be a liability. Plus sonny bill is no angel, the odd body check he comes up with in super rugby gets panalised and during world cup if he does that he will likely end up in the bin.

But it also must be noted that that offload sonny has could very well win some tight games and his defencive cover can't be faulted. He and carter together seen to be a very good combination.

At the end of the day if fit they will both get a chance and who ever looks best at that time will get the nod for critical games.

I'm agreed this is the most likely outcome but I really started this more as an opinion poll that anything else. Personally I'm a fan of Ma'a Nonu but I just think SBW has an edge over him and I'd like to see SBW start and my hope is the coaches will give Fruean a chance in a couple of matches.

 

[lance2010]

^^ Your argument for Nonu can just be used for the question marks over SBW. He was very well behaved on the EoYTour, and has given one penalty away for a shoulder charge in Super15. Nonu got two yellows in the same game, one for a shoulder charge miles worse than SBW has ever done in rugby. If Nonu does any of the dumb crap he does week in week out for the 'canes it would cost the AB's too.

Agree though they will both have a chance and it'll be up to who impresses most.

Has everyone forgot in the dying seconds it was Nonu who bust the line and threw that perfect long pass to Dagg to beat South Africa,this is international level rugby where it counts Nonu has X-factor and is switched on when he wears the black jersey.I want the AB's coaches to give Nonu a chance to play his own game and not the distributor role.Don't get me wrong SBW is playing well but Credit is due to Nonu for all the **** he went through when everyone doubted him and he stuck at it.

 

[Larksea]

Weepu, Cowan, Ellis, Mathewson, then Leonard/Fotuali'i/anyone else you may want to bring up. So I was a bit harsh he's the 5th option at best. His delivery isn't as good as you think it is, although I do agree Cowan is easily the slowest. Injury hasn't prevented Leonard playing for the AB's, it is the fact he has clearly not been in the top 2 that has stopped him.

you say form and not injury has stopped him?

I dont agree and will use examples.

2007 first made the AB's and quickly gained a reputation as a good impact option off the bench.

2008 Season pretty much totally ruined with a knee injury. The worst thing is he had surgery to fix it and was in a "moon boot" for some time. When the boot came off they found the surgery was not successful so he had surgery a 2nd time and was back at square one - shocker. If fit considering his 2007 form and the fact Byron was off the scene he would have been a likely AB this year. Leonards injury effectively paved the way for Cowan to become a regular.

2009 he was in great form mid to late super14 and a critical part of the chiefs making the final but was injured before the final and couldn't play. Injured a bone in his chest and also had a leg injury which hampered his progress. Made a couple of appearances in the june tests and tri nations off the bench. his big chance came starting against Italy on the EoY when he could have really made his mark but he got a boot to the head and had to come off early with concussion.

2010 Chiefs tight 5 decimated with injuries and some injury issues of his own hurt leonards chances for early selection for the AB's but he came back from injury in the ITM cup and was in brilliant form lifting his performance to fight off barlow's challenge for the starting role, easily better than Elis and mathewson though the latter had a verry good S14 campain behind him. But towards the later stages of the ITM cup Leonard had a sickening head clash which effectively ruled him out of the finals and most likely all black selection as well.

IMO your comment "Injury hasn't prevented Leonard playing for the AB's" has to be one of the more absurd claims I think i've seen.

If anything Leonards injury record is is main weakness, he has a reputation now of starting a season slowley and getting better every game then getting injured when the business end of the season starts.

Which is almost the exact oposite of Iron man Jimmy cowan. Who's main strength is that he's almost never injured or seems to be able to play through injury and pain. Even though his good showings for the AB's have been few and far between and he's been "solid" at best he has always been available for selection over the last 5 years during which time Weepu's fitness has been up and down and Leonard has spent huge amounts of time out injured.

 

[Sam Owen]

If you support the All Blacks you're spolit for choice as far as centre pairings go.

The centres is not a problem area for the All Blacks.

 

[donmcdazzle]

you say form and not injury has stopped him?

I dont agree and will use examples.

2007 first made the AB's and quickly gained a reputation as a good impact option off the bench.

2008 Season pretty much totally ruined with a knee injury. The worst thing is he had surgery to fix it and was in a "moon boot" for some time. When the boot came off they found the surgery was not successful so he had surgery a 2nd time and was back at square one - shocker. If fit considering his 2007 form and the fact Byron was off the scene he would have been a likely AB this year. Leonards injury effectively paved the way for Cowan to become a regular.

2009 he was in great form mid to late super14 and a critical part of the chiefs making the final but was injured before the final and couldn't play. Injured a bone in his chest and also had a leg injury which hampered his progress. Made a couple of appearances in the june tests and tri nations off the bench. his big chance came starting against Italy on the EoY when he could have really made his mark but he got a boot to the head and had to come off early with concussion.

2010 Chiefs tight 5 decimated with injuries and some injury issues of his own hurt leonards chances for early selection for the AB's but he came back from injury in the ITM cup and was in brilliant form lifting his performance to fight off barlow's challenge for the starting role, easily better than Elis and mathewson though the latter had a verry good S14 campain behind him. But towards the later stages of the ITM cup Leonard had a sickening head clash which effectively ruled him out of the finals and most likely all black selection as well.

IMO your comment "Injury hasn't prevented Leonard playing for the AB's" has to be one of the more absurd claims I think i've seen.

If anything Leonards injury record is is main weakness, he has a reputation now of starting a season slowley and getting better every game then getting injured when the business end of the season starts.

Which is almost the exact oposite of Iron man Jimmy cowan. Who's main strength is that he's almost never injured or seems to be able to play through injury and pain. Even though his good showings for the AB's have been few and far between and he's been "solid" at best he has always been available for selection over the last 5 years during which time Weepu's fitness has been up and down and Leonard has spent huge amounts of time out injured.

Except that you can't use your opinion on his form to say he would've made if not for the injury. So what I'm saying is that regardless of injuries or not he wouldn't have made it anyway due to there being better players (those I mentioned above) on the scene.

Saying things like "quickly gained a reputation as a good impact off the bench" is completely unfounded, who said such things? I never heard of that reputation at the time. I am also unaware of this new reputation you have endowed upon him. His reputation to me is a decent player, with a decent pass (if not sometimes erratic) and good speed, with questionable decision making and defence. Decision making is arguably the key to playing halfback, and Leonard has shown it isn't his strong suit.

Face it, he had chances for the AB's when he was fully fit and couldn't lock himself in cause he didn't play that well. Also I'm not a huge Cowan fan but be fair, he has put in some really good performances for the AB's. He is better than Leonard so just swallow your pride and admit it.

Decision making and a sometimes wobbly pass are Leonard's main issues not his injuries.

 

[Larksea]

yeah gutted jared Payne has decided to go off shore, having a great season and he's a constant performer. Mid fielders tend to peak at around 28-29 years old and he is leaving at the age of 25. he may not end up in the running for the AB's this year but they way his is playing he would surely be in contention once Smith and/or Nonu have done their dash overseas. So reliable you would have to bet he would do the job if given the chance.

 

[d1e1m]

If you support the All Blacks you're spolit for choice as far as centre pairings go.

The centres is not a problem area for the All Blacks.

Truer words never spoken. I would hold any suggestions for AB centers until after Crusaders v STormers anyway.

 

[Larksea]

Except that you can't use your opinion on his form to say he would've made if not for the injury. So what I'm saying is that regardless of injuries or not he wouldn't have made it anyway due to there being better players (those I mentioned above) on the scene.

Saying things like "quickly gained a reputation as a good impact off the bench" is completely unfounded, who said such things? I never heard of that reputation at the time. I am also unaware of this new reputation you have endowed upon him. His reputation to me is a decent player, with a decent pass (if not sometimes erratic) and good speed, with questionable decision making and defence. Decision making is arguably the key to playing halfback, and Leonard has shown it isn't his strong suit.

Face it, he had chances for the AB's when he was fully fit and couldn't lock himself in cause he didn't play that well. Also I'm not a huge Cowan fan but be fair, he has put in some really good performances for the AB's. He is better than Leonard so just swallow your pride and admit it.

Decision making and a sometimes wobbly pass are Leonard's main issues not his injuries.

I would agree with you if Leonards carrier didn't so obviously show that when his fitness is good he's in the AB's and when he's had injury issues he's not.

I also agree leonards passing has been iffy at times and it was a effect of maybe trying to get the ball out too fast. But I also think last year during ITM cup he made huge strides in that area and he's been consistant ever since. That is mainly thanks to the competition he had with barlow. Barlows passing is very good and leonards was looking pretty bad in comparison but he obviously worked on it a lot because it improved out of sight over the period of about 2 weeks and it's been kept at a very good level.

We will see though, I think what will happen is that Leonard will continue to improve as this season goes on and if he doesn't pick up an injury he will be right in contention for the All Blacks. But given his history you wouldn't want to bet on him making it to the later rounds without joining the injured list. If anything I put him down as a contender asuming that he wont be injured.

 

[Aedaphon]

I would agree with you if Leonards carrier didn't so obviously show that when his fitness is good he's in the AB's and when he's had injury issues he's not.

I also agree leonards passing has been iffy at times and it was a effect of maybe trying to get the ball out too fast. But I also think last year during ITM cup he made huge strides in that area and he's been consistant ever since. That is mainly thanks to the competition he had with barlow. Barlows passing is very good and leonards was looking pretty bad in comparison but he obviously worked on it a lot because it improved out of sight over the period of about 2 weeks and it's been kept at a very good level.

We will see though, I think what will happen is that Leonard will continue to improve as this season goes on and if he doesn't pick up an injury he will be right in contention for the All Blacks. But given his history you wouldn't want to bet on him making it to the later rounds without joining the injured list. If anything I put him down as a contender asuming that he wont be injured.

Would it be too far to ask you two if you want to start your own All Blacks scrum-half thread?

And as a neutral observer all I can say is I'm from England and I'd always seen SH as New Zealand's biggest gap in the backline. Oh and never even heard of Leonard actually...

 

[ranger]

Would it be too far to ask you two if you want to start your own All Blacks scrum-half thread?

And as a neutral observer all I can say is I'm from England and I'd always seen SH as New Zealand's biggest gap in the backline. Oh and never even heard of Leonard actually...

Weepu's playmaking from 9 is world class, as is Cowans defense. If only they could fuse together we would be set.

 

[Sam Owen]

Truer words never spoken. I would hold any suggestions for AB centers until after Crusaders v STormers anyway.

Thank you d1e1m.

Back to the subject...I like Ma'a Nonu, not a BIG fan of his but I like him none the less...but did anyone see him get fended off by Olivier?...that Olivier is a good player man.

 

[woodward]

Nonu.. has a smarter game that SBW

sometimes you have to wonder if the majority of people on this forum actually watch rugby. Nonu is well known to be a dumb player, he has matured and improved in this area but everybody still knows hes thick as pigshit. SBW has excellent decision making (onfield atleast ) apart from when he pushed a couple of dumb passes early in his s15 debut in an emotionally charged game less than a fortnight after he survived one of New Zealands worst ever natural disasters. Williams is easily the best 12 in the country, exceeding even the most optimistic expectations prior to his arrival. You would have to be dreaming to think that Nonu has a chance to make even the bench apart from through injuries, those places will be taken by McAlister and Toeava. Wing is really the only position up for discussion in the backs where our supposed depth there isn't looking quite as flash.

I should also mention that although I have Toeava on the bench, hes currently the best outside back in Super Rugby